Mozilla is unhappy because the use of browser engines other than WebKit will be restricted to the EU, forcing them to develop two different apps.
For an independent browser like Firefox, managing two browsers is not easy, so it can be forgiven that this could be seen as almost harassment.
Also, the fact that the use of browser engines other than WebKit is limited to iOS means that the use of WebKit is still forced on iPadOS, which also increases the effort for Mozilla.
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.
Some Rules
- Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
- Don’t promote proprietary software
- Try to keep things on topic
- If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
- Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
- Be nice :)
Related communities
Chat rooms
-
[Matrix/Element]Dead
much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)
- 0 users online
- 84 users / day
- 537 users / week
- 1.5K users / month
- 6.58K users / 6 months
- 1 subscriber
- 2.31K Posts
- 53.6K Comments
- Modlog
Apple, Google, Microsoft all worthy of a massive boycott.
Apple does not care and will never care about open source other than the bits it has to care about because they’re a part of Darwin, their core.
They’re a company offering a particular “experience” and open source products do not fit into that model well at all. I use apple phones because I’m partially blind and for a very long time the accessibility story on Android was a screaming nightmare (I’m told it’s got better) but I have no illusions that they’re anything other than a profit seeking MegaCorp with all that implies.
Their lack of choice is why I’ll never buy Apple products.
deleted by creator
Apple always had been painfull for any third party devs. Also Vivaldi worked several years to create a browser which works in this iPhone thing, and now, after it’s release, Apple admits Chromium.
My wife has an iPad and one of the things I hate the most is that you can’t install adblock extensions into Firefox on it like you can on Android. Which is a thing that has made using the browser on the phone wayyyy more enjoyable.
The Orion browser for iOS/iPadOS supports both Firefox and Chromium extensions, however, the support is quite buggy and limited. Nonetheless, a valiant effort by Orion devs.
I use AdGuard both on my Android phone and iPad. Not quite as good on the iPad because Apple doesn’t make it easy, but definitely makes a huge difference. For me, $30 a year is worth it and you can use it on 3 devices. I got sick of the ads in apps that were downright disturbing in some cases and reporting them didn’t do a whole lot. Browser extensions can do a lot more to tidy up the experience, but I will take what I can get.
https://adguard.com/en/welcome.html
You can pay a lifetime licence for 10$ https://apps.apple.com/fr/app/adguard-pro-adblock/id1126386264?l=en-GB
I ended up getting it from them directly. I am on Android 90% of the time and don’t pay for the license from the Apple store. No idea if that one is a single device or the same as the multi-device. I tend to not do things from the Apple store as I don’t have an iPhone and they seem to want or assume you have one. Just like I can never use their watch (not that I want one).
Why are you paying per year? You can get lifetime adguard licenses for cheap from stack social.
I use DNS level blocking for blocking ads on iOS devices.
Which service do you use (if any) for it? Personally I use controld but I hear NextDNS is the most popular
NextDNS. Pretty cheap and supports DNS over HTTPS.
Yeah not comparable. There is so much cosmetic blocking and also many sites will just load ads from the same domain.
Like YouTube iirc.
The fun life of an Apple customer.
how do I de-apple my iPhone?
Why would you want to do that?
Genuine question.
Because if it is the hardware you want to keep and not the software, there are good android based options. And if what you want is control over the software, there are also good android options. I’d recommend a Pixel phone, and you’ll always have the option to de-goggle it completely with either CalyxOs, GrapheneOs or similar ones.
I was more poking fun at how ios users who let an ultra mega corp holds all their data and actively cripples privacy efforts while touting a false sense of privacy as marketing, never ask to de-apple their iPhones
You can’t. At least not like you can on normal phones. There is no way to unlock the bootloader to my knowledge
Direct a heat gun at the area right below the camera for 10min or so. The demon should be gone.
You could try to jailbreak but honestly you’re better off not having an iPhone
Don’t purchase & start using it from the first place. Save yourself plenty of resources. Focus on something else productive & valuable.
genuinely fuck Apple for stealing khtml and driving it into the ground
I like how just about everyone I who’s looked at this is basically like, “fuck apple”.
There are a few fanboys, but they are way less common than usual.
I’m hoping Apple picks up on this and reverses course.
I mean, I’ll take a stab at speaking for Apple fans, and in fact developers. (I’m an ex-employee.)
There are a lot of things we like about the user experience on their platforms, and we appreciate their general interest in privacy while not engaging in the dirty data mining / advertising business of Google and Microsoft. There is a polish on their platforms that is best in class.
But I don’t believe any of us actually support the App Store lockdown situation. It’s probably the biggest black mark on their record. I think they got it right on macOS, requiring the binaries to be notarised (signed digitally) in such a way that malware can be blacklisted. This is a useful security feature. But developers are free to distribute however they want and third party stores like SetApp and Steam coexist happily with the App Store.
100% of their arguments about keeping the App Store as the sole distribution chain are bullshit because macOS is the proof. It’s pure rent-seeking behaviour.
But the privacy is just a facade, right? Like with that recent scandal about the government requesting push notification info, Google of all companies was actually only handing it over with valid warrants while Apple was giving it to any law enforcement who asked.
They are absolutely mining data.
As someone who was an Android user and tried switching to an iPhone, I see lots of weird bugs and behaviors I never had with Android. Sure, the OS is slightly better, and rarely crashes, but everything else is a little bit worse.
Literally every Google app is better than Apple’s. Be it Google maps, keyboard, mail, calendar, etc. But because they aren’t made for iPhone, there’s all kinds of little bugs, mostly visual/UI related.
And then there’s all these nonsensical decisions that make my life harder. Hotspot can’t run with wifi on, you can’t record your calls (very useful when talking to banks, government, etc.), can’t even arrange the icons in “home” screen to fixed locations or make them smaller.
I finally figured out that when Apple fans talk about polish, they just mean it looks pretty and feels high-end. Which, sure, I can concede that. But that’s not what I actually care about.
Anyway, rant over, sorry to take it out on you!
They won’t care, they have the consumerist crowd locked down. The crowd that buys dozens of Stanley Tumblers so they have one that matches any outfit. There might be more of us who care than there used to be, but the average iPhone buyer doesn’t care and Apple knows it.
I am so out of the loop on Stanley tumblers. People are obsessed with them, I don’t get it.
Basically, the person who marketed crocs and made them popular was hired to market Stanley tumblers, and they are genuinely one of the best at their job.
I don’t understand it, but they are very good at what they do
The gist of it from what I remember is a woman’s car burned, but her Stanley tumbler survived the fire, and maybe still had ice in it. Anyway she posted on tiktok about the whole incident, and Stanley’s marketing department got the biggest lay-up ever, I think they bought her a new car, and launched a bunch of new colors of tumblers as limited edition things.
Honestly, Mozilla doesn’t even have the resources to maintain a proper WebKit-based version of Firefox on iPadOS, when a large amount of the work is handled for them by Apple. (See, for example, the fact that it still does not support multiple windows, a feature that has been available since 2019.) It would seem a mistake for them to try taking on a much larger load of work when they can’t handle what they’ve already taken on.
How’s that Cook-dick taste?
Missed a chance to say tim-cock
It’s not like they’d develop a new engine for iOS. They already have one which can now be used for iOS as well – but not everywhere.
Why not stopping developing apps for Apple systems? Fuck them.
The issue is that larger companies which could have an impact (Netflix, google, Meta) already have special deals in place that bypass these rules
https://newsroom.spotify.com/2024-01-26/apples-proposed-changes-reject-the-goals-of-the-dma/
From Spotify.
Update: https://www.theverge.com/2024/1/29/24054943/microsoft-apple-app-store-dma-rule-change-response Xbox (Microsoft)
Because then Apple fanbois will complain and tarnish Mozilla’s/Firefox’s reputation
Developing a crippled port that is limited/restricted by design due to Apple policies would not really help Mozilla’s/Firefox’s reputation anyway. Apple fanbois will complain ether way.
If those fanbois want a Firefox app on Apple systems, it’s Apple the one they should complain to.
Or walk away from.
They already do that, they can say whatever, they will be isolated with their shitty Apple products and if they want decent browsers then they will need to use decent systems. Apple can’t abuse of their power and force us to follow their abusive rules, they can’t even have a decent UI desktop. They are so bad programmers.
Such a weird take.
Also this has nothing to do with programmers.
Just saying their OS sucks, bad designs, buggy UIs, etc. They don’t even decent software, and I already saw many stupid bugs.
Android was a victim of the NSO’s Pegasus because of WhatsApp, and possibly that only worked because Facebook negotiated with phone manufacturers to bundle dodgy pre-installed system apps outside the Google Play Store.
Apple’s iOS was a victim of the NSO’s Pegasus because of iMessages.
For me, that’s enough to completely steer clear of iOS altogether. I mean, the lack of customisation and control over my device was already enough, but that kind of vindicated it for me.
Yeah, my Android doesn’t have WhatsApp, I neither have Google apps. It’s a degoogled OS. I feel free and things works, even my default web browser on my Android has NoScript (JavaScript blocker), to make it safer. With Apple… you are sold.
Ditto! No Google needed, and Facebook apps are prohibited on my phone. I can even get banking apps working with a bit of Magisk, working in Zygisk domain with a deny list hiding it from the apps. Apparently proper SafetyNet checks aren’t that common anymore.
For browsers, I’d recommend Mull and Mulch. Mull is a privacy fork of Firefox, Mulch is a hardened version of Android System Webview (the backend browser that lots of apps use). Both come pre-installed with DivestOS.
Mozilla doesn’t have the sort of leverage to make an impact by abandoning apple devices. Firefox has an incredibly low market share and this could push people to other browsers. People tend to use the same browser for stuff like bookmark and password syncing, so abandoning ios could have larger consequences.
Yeah I understand, but if Apple is fucking up with our development, not only for Firefox, for any developer that makes apps for phones… why keep following their abusive rules? When I say “stopping developing apps for Apple” I mean, any developer that dislikes the abusive rules of Apple and fees. If we abandon the system, the iOS users will need to move to Android or other systems that are more friendly for developers.
Oh yeah generally I’d agree, with firefox I just think it’d be better to do what will push the fewest people away as long as it’s possible to maintain development.
Sadly yeah, I was just like “screaming with anger” about what Apple does, and seems everyone just agrees and keep playing their game.
So hear me out. What if we took $6.9M out of the CEO bonus and dropped the Mozilla AI project?
Maybe that would be enough to hire a maintainer or two for Firefox iOS port?
Maybe that could work?
I don’t know, just an idea. Crazy.
i used to think that, but I cringe at myself. I’m not sure what other managers there are being paid, and in the CEO’s defence, she was at Mozilla since the beginning, even through their bad times, pre-firefox days, and through their chrome days.
That being said, if its 6.9m dollars though, that is getting a bit high…
Mozilla has a budget of around 200 mil for software development, so the 7 mil are probably not enough. Not defending the high pay though.
Also, AI Integration into browsers could very well be a deciding factor for mainstream users when choosing a browser. So having some expertise around e.g. running LLMs privacy preserving on client hardware for page summarisation could pay off. Llamafile for example, is something cool coming from the Mozilla AI stuff.
I see a future where the journalist gives the LLM two sentences and asks it to spit out a 2000 word article out of that.
The user then asks the LLM to Tl;Dr the article down to the two core sentences.
Same probably for business email. Jane goes “send an email to Joe saying no.” The LLM goes “dear joe… we appreciate… your valuable conteibution… unfortunately at this time… cannot consider… looking forward… thanks for … whatever”. Joe then clicks the “summarise” button and gets “Jane says no”.
Amazing how far we’ve come.
The same with resumes. Using a LLM to write a resume and cover letter out of key facts, sending it, turning it back into key facts around the applicant.
Firefox is the only browser with local website translation. Literally the extension is the only app on Android that does that.
Wrong. Vivaldi has had local translation for half a year now.
Cool! So it works on Chromium, they just need to implement it. Is it Foss? Do they use the same thing as Firefox?
Yes, but also require Apple to expand its EU software to people not in the EU
oh yeah put the onus on mozilla, nice one
Yeah, that will fix Apple being total utter assholes. Giving them what they want always fixes everyone being assholes.
I don’t know what you coul have against mozilla ai?
Mozilla: ignores years of customer complaints and requests
Mozilla: creates new product nobody asked for
Fans: “What’s wrong with Product?”
Are these customers donating, or purchasing mozilla products or services so that mozilla doesn’t have to rely on google’s donations?
https://github.com/Mozilla-Ocho
Nearly 10k and 400 stars on those respective repos.
A way to run a large language model on any operating system, in any OS, in a simple, local, and privacy respecting manner?
For linux we have docker, but Windows users were starving for a good way to do this, and even on linux, removing the step of configuring docker (or other container runtimes) to work with nvidia, is nice.
And it’s still FOSS stuff they aren’t being paid for, currently. But there are plenty of ways to monetize this.
Here’s an easy one: tie in the the vpn service they have to allow you to access the web ui of the computer running the llamafile remotely. Configure something like end to end encryption or or nat traversal (so not even mozilla can sniff the traffic), and you end up with a private LLM you can access remotely.
With this, maybe they can afford some actual development on firefox, without having to rely on google money.
I’m confused what you’re trying to say here.
Are you saying that Google has more of a right to dictate what Mozilla does because Google gives Mozilla the most money?
Are you saying Google told Mozilla to work on things other than Firefox with the money they were given?
Why bring up Google at all?
Telemitry is way more useful than you think, because the loudest are not always right. Same for donations.
Because much of mozilla’s funding is from a deal with google, that’s why.
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla_Foundation
A lot of money, but not enough to actually to actually do a lot. They keep cutting features their “customers” like. Why?
Because development is expensive.
Google props mozilla up to pretend they don’t have a monopoly on the internet. Just enough money to barely keep up, not enough to truly stay competitive.
Mozilla wants to not rely on google money, so they are trying to expand their products. AI is overhyped, but still useful, and something worth investing in.
I know that, but why did you bring it up in order to contrast it with Mozilla’s consumer base? Do you mean to say that Google is the actual paying customer?
It seems like such a bizarre thing to bring up at all.
I’m fucking enraged man. I hope we can regulate these assholes.
I mean, this is basically malicious compliance. They did everything in their power to follow the letter but eschew the spirit of the law. Let’s hope the EU has teeth and keeps applying pressure.
deleted by creator
And that’s coming from someone who has “applelover” in their username. They fucked up big time by pissing off even their most loyal fans.
(/j)
Honestly, I don’t know how many normies this will upset. Pretty much only techies follow this and the people being annoyed by it might just blame the app developer and not Apple. Time will tell
There is a very easy solution. Don’t buy apple.
I’d like to add that even if you sell apple. The only other alternative is android and they have their own set of issues.
For me, an iPhone that allows sideloading would be a huge step towards perfect.
Why do you hate consumer protection law?
boycotts barely work, and doubly so when the company has a legion of faithful fanbois and its among the biggest corporations on the planet.
I don’t. Many people do. To protect their very clear monopolistic goals, we need to protect consumers from this stuff.
People should fully own the computers they buy, regardless of which company they buy from.
This means root access and a replacable primary bootloader, let alone just being able to install apps not on a curated market (what Apple calls sideloading). macOS and Windows both manage to allow root access, and so do certain Android devices (and obviously other OSs as well). Replacable primary bootloaders are more rare, though, especially in ARM devices due to efuse-based secure boot in the CPU that is impossible to turn off. There’s only one phone I can think of that allows for replacing the primary bootloader (Shift 6mq).
We shouldn’t allow for artificial restrictions placed by corporations on devices they sell, because as we have seen time and time again, companies copy each others’ restrictions, especially Apple. Same goes with game consoles, IoT devices, Smart TVs, etc. And before you mention the potential for piracy, DRM is an artificial restriction placed by corporations, and should also be removed from devices.
Anything less means that you don’t own the device that you paid for.
Apple is clearly attempting to comply with the EU DMA in bad faith so that they can maintain as much control over their users and app developers as possible.
That’s not a solution. It’s a way for you to avoid the problem. It does nothing to help the millions of people who are already deeply invested in the Apple ecosystem.
You cannot root out the evil from within such massive companies. Nvidia still has a stranglehold on the market with CUDA. Literally the only thing one can do is to employ their wallet towards more fruitful endeavours, like donating and purchasing Android in this case. People who are invested into Apple are going to have to face that they made a choice moving away from freedom, even though I understand that staying the odd one out socially isn’t a lot of fun. There’s nothing to be done here unless someone with a lot of money and lawyers sues Apple. Know anyone willing to do that?
Then deinvest?
What a fucking argument. “Yes, it is a problem, but it is too hard for me to do anything about it, someone else should fix it”
That is the solution though, always has been. Vote with your wallet.
voting with your wallet doesn’t work when most people would buy anyway (whether it’s because they’re ignorant, trapped to do so, etc)
The minority of people that actually care and know about privacy and software freedom is just a tiny statistic in Apple’s perspective, so voting with your wallet doesn’t work.
“My actions mean nothing because everyone else won’t do it” is exactly what everyone else is thinking.
You’re making excuses. Be the change you know should happen. Don’t be a sheep.
Don’t buy puffa jackets. Seriously. They’re fucking everywhere now. Don’t do it, you don’t need it, they’re cheap and overpriced.
I’m already taking actions, but I do it with the understanding that it won’t make much of a difference.
I’m sorry to break your bubble but most people just don’t care. They want their computer to play a video off the internet, and don’t care how long that takes as long as it works. Maybe they’ll care about things in the specific interests they have, but they won’t care about computers, software, and libre software.
We, people that care about software freedom are a minority and we need to accept that. And the only way to get things done when you’re in the minority is to borrow power from the majority, e.g. by passing legislation.
Most people not caring isn’t a concern of mine. Apple being wealthy isn’t a concern of mine. What concerns me is that the products I use flourish and develop in ways that I like. I don’t use Apple, so I don’t particularly care about them - I just watch the drama from the sidelines.
You’re not bursting my bubble in any way, but you are being a little pretentious.
Apple: opens its wallet
Lol that’s basically the Brave attitude, drown out the controversy with a marketing campaign and pull in more new unsuspecting users than the ones you lose.
Yeah, let’s ignore the entire history of labor, environmental, safety, and product regulations, and believe everything is the way it is because of our dogmatic free market feefees.
Lol for a moment there I thought I was going off the rails with my puffa jacket rant above, but your segway into “free market feefees” is far more unhinged.
Username checks out
free market works when the market is actually free.
As soon as entry costs are introduced into the market, the free market falls apart.
Think of the costs of building factories, rnd, lawyers, etc.
Fucking lol. Your logic is undeniable!
sunk cost fallacy
No, it’s not a sunk-cost fallacy.
If you already have a bunch of Apple stuff, it makes more sense to continue using Apple stuff, because switching would cost money and effort. You’d also lose access to the software library that you paid for.
Having a bunch of Apple stuff also makes buying more Apple stuff in the future a better value proposition because you gain access to features that you wouldn’t otherwise have. Platform lock-in is not a sunk-cost fallacy. You’re just uninformed and being smug about it.
The sunk cost fallacy only applies when stopping is free or the cost is low enough (in money or effort) that it makes more sense to quit than continue.
Not sure if it’s a fallacy if it’s about addressing people who have spent a ton on an ecosystem and can’t just devote more money to buy the alternative and time to figure out the parts that aren’t compatible
What parts aren’t compatible? And you can load Linux and Windows on all Mac’s. You can also sell your iPhone and buy an android phone with money left over… getting out of the apple closed ecosystem is cheaper than sticking with it.
For most people, time is not regarded to be free (i.e. not a cost). As a devoted Linux user, the adage that “Linux is only free if you don’t value your time” is absolutely true.
Uhh ok install windows then?
You can’t refund anything that’s not physical, for one…
Where did I say refund anything?
then sell apple
Not a solution.
This not only has a time and effort cost attached to it but selling your used hardware to buy new hardware is always a bad value proposition.
Then sell stonks.
(For legal purposes this is a joke.)
Perfect for the genius bar.
This could even go as high as a ‘don’t buy’
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ERjJDjjUYAEutgQ.jpg
Don’t buy! Don’t buy!
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Apple’s new rules in the European Union mean browsers like Firefox can finally use their own engines on iOS.
Although this may seem like a welcome change, Mozilla spokesperson Damiano DeMonte tells The Verge it’s “extremely disappointed” with the way things turned out.
“We are still reviewing the technical details but are extremely disappointed with Apple’s proposed plan to restrict the newly-announced BrowserEngineKit to EU-specific apps,” DeMonte says.
In iOS 17.4, Apple will no longer force browsers in the EU to use WebKit, the underlying engine that powers Safari.
“Apple’s proposals fail to give consumers viable choices by making it as painful as possible for others to provide competitive alternatives to Safari,” DeMonte adds.
Epic CEO Tim Sweeney called the new terms a “horror show,” while Spotify said the changes are a “farce.” Apple’s guidelines are still pending approval by the EU Commission.
The original article contains 285 words, the summary contains 142 words. Saved 50%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
I really hope the EU gives them the middle finger and tells them to apply the law in good faith, not like this.
Still can’t do much for markets outside the EU though. Countries like the US, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Australia should implement similar laws. That would force Apple’s hand.
Well… It may be arguable that limiting the dev base to Europe only is damaging for Europe users thus regulators may make a comeback.