So as we know Windows Platform Apps and WinUI3 apps do not work on Linux, I keep wondering if Microsoft were to launch a new API let’s say direct X 15 but limit it to Windows Store Apps, and provided a way for the apps to be installed from other stores like steam could they in time kill modern Linux gaming.
IMO the Windows Store is why valve has invested heavily into gaming on Linux. Windows Store could easily become a huge Steam Store competitor if Microsoft were an effective company. So Valve wants to enable devices that don’t run Windows. Numerous other benefits for something like the Steam Deck as well, but I’d bet we see another Steam Machine someday - probably after they convince more companies to support Linux
Some people are making fun about this, but if you look at the history of the steam store and how Gabe is focusing so heavily on Linux, it is because he is concerned that Microsoft is going to shut down Win32 and he will be absolutely screwed.
Due to this, he is creating a safety net for himself and is pushing Linux hard as an alternative to Microsoft Windows so that he can not be so reliant on Microsoft and what they choose to do and not do. Specifically when it comes to win 32.
I think there’s a strong temptation to close the platform. If people look at what they can accomplish when they can limit competitors’ access to their platform, they say, “Wow, that’s really exciting.” Even some of the people who have open platforms, like Microsoft, get really excited by the idea that Netflix has to pay them rent in order to be on the Internet.
That’s not how we got here, and I don’t think that’s a very attractive future. So we’re looking at the platform, and up until now we’ve been a free rider. We’ve been able to benefit from everything that’s gone into the PC and the Internet. Now we have to start finding ways that we can continue to make sure there are open platforms. So that involves a couple of different things.
One, we’re trying to make sure that Linux thrives. Our perception is that one of the big problems holding Linux back is the absence of games. I think that a lot of people — in their thinking about platforms — don’t realize how critical games are as a consumer driver of purchases and usage. So we’re going to continue working with the Linux distribution guys, shipping Steam, shipping our games, and making it as easy as possible for anybody who’s engaged with us — putting their games on Steam and getting those running on Linux, as well. It’s a hedging strategy.
I think that Windows 8 is kind of a catastrophe for everybody in the PC space. I think that we’re going to lose some of the top-tier PC [original equipment manufacturers]. They’ll exit the market. I think margins are going to be destroyed for a bunch of people. If that’s true, it’s going to be a good idea to have alternatives to hedge against that eventuality. But when you start thinking about a platform, you have to address it.
This was quite a while ago and as you can imagine a lot of websites closed but I found some references to it here and there and I’m sure if you dig deeper you’ll really find some good sources for yourself.
It’s definitely a hedging strategy to invest in Linux so that they’re not beholden to Microsoft.
Sadly none of those links, unless I somehow missed it, directly quote Newell, but given the contemporaneous discussion on it and the citations linking to pages that no longer work, it seems benefit of the doubt is reasonable.
I think if Newell has gone on record as such, he is right to do so if MS does decide to abandon win32. Thing is though, one of the reasons win32 and even the registry have existed this long is so they don’t alienate developers.
It’s speculative, but my opinion is the only way MS would ever do this is if they decide to create a completely brand new operating system (one that eschews NTOSKRNL, NTFS, the registry, etc, in favor of something new).
However, it looks to me as if they’re all in on Windows 11 with this nonsensical Recall and other “AI” craziness, they don’t seem to be focusing on much else — so maybe that’s a good thing :)
I just posted a few links to the other person who responded to me and you can follow those and there is more detail there.
But basically if Microsoft were to try, which they did, try and move to their own app store, which removes win32, then all of Valve’s games ( in the store) will no longer become relevant over time, on the Windows platform.
You don’t just spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on Linux for no reason at all. It’s not like he’s a fanboy, he’s a businessman, and he’s protecting his business.
Win32 is a collection of windows APIs that allows applications to freely take use of windows.
The problem being that 99% of current windows applications use win32 APIs, so all those programs would just be dead unless the alternative is api compatible.
So in order to kill win32 Microsoft would have to release an api compatible alternative.
So what would happen if they did that?
That is kill win32 and add an api compatible alternative?
Best case scenario: nothing changes.
Worse case scenario: every single standalone exe would be dead
So why kill win32?
Power; by lets say locking the new api behind the windows store, they basically fully lock all applications to ever be redistributed to said windows store, killing steam, itch, epic games, and every single exe in existence.
The only way applications would exist is by approval of Microsoft.
Now obviously this will never happen.
The entire premise of win32 shutting down is made up by people not understanding what they are talking about.
However as a corporation, valve rather spends money on an alternative to be able to tell Microsoft, that they are able to significantly influence window’s desktop marketshare, than to let Microsoft do whatever they want, even if it is mostly just smaller things.
Yes, I don’t think it’s just about the execution of Win32 code, but also the possibility of MS using marketing techniques and dirty manipulation methods to give themselves advantages within the Windows platform to sway the general public to their store in a similar manner as how they push their browser, their MS Teams communication platform, their One Drive Cloud Storage, their search engine, their data-collection tech, their assistant, etc.
when you develop games using win32, you decide how you want to deliver the game to the customer (Steam,Epic, your OWN website, GoG)
Steam can take a cut from your sales but if you don’t like their policy you can deliver the games via other platforms. You have choice
enter UWA. Games developed using this platform HAS to be delivered via Windows Store. The devs need to get a key which needs to be purchased from Microsoft.#
Microsoft can disable Win32 apps, if they want, and all games (other than which are on Windows store) will stop working
games from other platforms won’t work on PC since they are win32. Your choice is removed
Microsoft can ban you from the store, removing you ability to install apps
There’d be no reason to. Anymore, I think they’d be more likely than that to try to port their Xbox game store to Linux than try to kill Linux gaming (though I doubt they’ll do that either)
It might, if it worked well, but that’s a big “if” and as I suggested in my original post I don’t think it’s particularly likely they’ll do it either way
My hope is that the Microsoft store continues to be so shitty that users just reject any future attempts to do that.
That being said, if a large number of devs and users eventually adopted it, I would abandon gaming and stick with only native Linux games and vintage PC games that ran through Wine/Proton.
I refuse to use Windows for anything. And as much as I love gaming, I love my freedom, privacy, and rights as a user far more.
They’d probably feel the wrath of the EU if they tried that, hopefully. Also, I doubt Steam under the current management would do that since it would shoot them in the foot because they’d be giving up and abandoning the popular enough Steam Deck at that point. I’m sure they’ve made more than enough money back from it to not want to shoot themselves in the foot.
Hopefully, yes. But I’m sure MS and some hardware manufacturers salivate at the thought of being able to create a completely locked down computer platform. I own neither, but aren’t both iPhone and Playstation users locked into the manufacturers’ respective stores? Those seems to be perfectly legal in the EU.
I don’t think Playstation is unlocked when it comes to 3rd party stores, but I do remember a whole thing about Apple having to allow side loading of apps onto iPhones over there, so if that actually came true you would technically not be locked into the app store since you could side load another one. Not quite the same as being totally free to choose an app store, but close enough.
They tried. It was called UWP, but it never caught on and Microsoft quickly realized nobody wanted to use their store or even bother with the new format, so all their games also have a normal x86 version.
Their main mistake was never trying to make their walled garden not suck ass. I would try to install things from the windows store just to see about it back when I was running windows and it took an infernally long time to open the store, search for an app, and then install that app.
it took an infernally long time to open the store, search for an app, and then install that app.
After about a year of Linux and using package managers/AUR to install and update software, it blows my mind to think that I would ever choose to do it a different way.
I don’t know how I put up with that shit for so many years.
Oh for sure. Even the other traditional way of doing windows installs (finding an EXE or MSI and then downloading it) sucks ass. The only good way to do things on windows is with Choco lol
90% of the time apps would not even install or update for me. It was immensely annoying if I wanted to just send a quick message on WhatsApp, but I had to update, and then the update didn’t work. It just gets stuck on 99% completed for eternity.
Aside from the reasons stated by other people in this thread, purely destroying something isn’t really Microsoft’s MO. Theirs is Extend, Embrace, Extinguish Embrace, Extend, Extinguish.
I think the time to do that has already passed; the Steam Deck and even Linux gaming in general has really taken off, so it would impact far more people than before. In addition, I think the EU has started breathing down their neck and will pounce on them if they do anything so blatantly monopolistic.
So this hypothetical “Direct X 15” would be limited to only Windows 11 users outside of europe, and the games wouldn’t be distributable through Steam. I can’t see that being a good pitch to developers, even if DirectX15 was really good.
They also tried this waay back in Windows 8 with the Windows Store, and it honestly was a flop.
Never underestimate the fleeting willpower of gamers in the face of exclusivity deals. It’s already captured a large section of the market (xbox consoles literally just run modified windows now) and will likely capture more. It’s all about adding enough of a marketing spin on it until the average gamer stops caring, or concedes the value proposition or their morals in favor of something they want more (like a next gen Skyrim reboot or something idk 🤷♂️)
What the fuck are you talking about, Jesse?
IMO the Windows Store is why valve has invested heavily into gaming on Linux. Windows Store could easily become a huge Steam Store competitor if Microsoft were an effective company. So Valve wants to enable devices that don’t run Windows. Numerous other benefits for something like the Steam Deck as well, but I’d bet we see another Steam Machine someday - probably after they convince more companies to support Linux
they already tried. remember uwp?
…and give the EU grounds to rip them a new one? Yes please! I so want to see corpos broken up in my lifetime.
Look up Forza Motorsport, they already came up with some “Game Services” which make it unbootable on Linux
Some people are making fun about this, but if you look at the history of the steam store and how Gabe is focusing so heavily on Linux, it is because he is concerned that Microsoft is going to shut down Win32 and he will be absolutely screwed.
Due to this, he is creating a safety net for himself and is pushing Linux hard as an alternative to Microsoft Windows so that he can not be so reliant on Microsoft and what they choose to do and not do. Specifically when it comes to win 32.
Got a source for this?
https://venturebeat.com/games/valves-gabe-newell-talks/
Some of what Gabe Newell said:
Goddamn can this man be any more GOATed?
This was quite a while ago and as you can imagine a lot of websites closed but I found some references to it here and there and I’m sure if you dig deeper you’ll really find some good sources for yourself.
It’s definitely a hedging strategy to invest in Linux so that they’re not beholden to Microsoft.
https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1&sid=12517&cid=315125
https://forum.level1techs.com/t/valve-ceo-says-windows-8-would-mean-a-catastrophe-for-windows-pc-gaming/142
And this one even has Tim Sweeney talking about it.
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/now-tim-sweeney-thinks-that-microsoft-will-use-windows-10-to-break-steam/
It’s very old news and the search engine that don’t really reward old articles too much, but it’s out there.
Thank you!
Sadly none of those links, unless I somehow missed it, directly quote Newell, but given the contemporaneous discussion on it and the citations linking to pages that no longer work, it seems benefit of the doubt is reasonable.
I think if Newell has gone on record as such, he is right to do so if MS does decide to abandon win32. Thing is though, one of the reasons win32 and even the registry have existed this long is so they don’t alienate developers.
It’s speculative, but my opinion is the only way MS would ever do this is if they decide to create a completely brand new operating system (one that eschews NTOSKRNL, NTFS, the registry, etc, in favor of something new).
However, it looks to me as if they’re all in on Windows 11 with this nonsensical Recall and other “AI” craziness, they don’t seem to be focusing on much else — so maybe that’s a good thing :)
Can you expand on this please, why is Gabe so worried about win32?,
I just posted a few links to the other person who responded to me and you can follow those and there is more detail there.
But basically if Microsoft were to try, which they did, try and move to their own app store, which removes win32, then all of Valve’s games ( in the store) will no longer become relevant over time, on the Windows platform.
You don’t just spend millions and millions and millions of dollars on Linux for no reason at all. It’s not like he’s a fanboy, he’s a businessman, and he’s protecting his business.
I guess I’m still confused on the why, is it because valve doesn’t want to update their games?
Why is win32 so important?
Win32 is a collection of windows APIs that allows applications to freely take use of windows. The problem being that 99% of current windows applications use win32 APIs, so all those programs would just be dead unless the alternative is api compatible. So in order to kill win32 Microsoft would have to release an api compatible alternative.
So what would happen if they did that? That is kill win32 and add an api compatible alternative? Best case scenario: nothing changes. Worse case scenario: every single standalone exe would be dead
So why kill win32? Power; by lets say locking the new api behind the windows store, they basically fully lock all applications to ever be redistributed to said windows store, killing steam, itch, epic games, and every single exe in existence. The only way applications would exist is by approval of Microsoft.
Now obviously this will never happen.
The entire premise of win32 shutting down is made up by people not understanding what they are talking about. However as a corporation, valve rather spends money on an alternative to be able to tell Microsoft, that they are able to significantly influence window’s desktop marketshare, than to let Microsoft do whatever they want, even if it is mostly just smaller things.
Yes, I don’t think it’s just about the execution of Win32 code, but also the possibility of MS using marketing techniques and dirty manipulation methods to give themselves advantages within the Windows platform to sway the general public to their store in a similar manner as how they push their browser, their MS Teams communication platform, their One Drive Cloud Storage, their search engine, their data-collection tech, their assistant, etc.
Win32 is what basically all non MS store apps use. It’s a bit old and bloated.
There’d be no reason to. Anymore, I think they’d be more likely than that to try to port their Xbox game store to Linux than try to kill Linux gaming (though I doubt they’ll do that either)
Surely that wouldn’t go anywhere even if they did do that
It might, if it worked well, but that’s a big “if” and as I suggested in my original post I don’t think it’s particularly likely they’ll do it either way
My hope is that the Microsoft store continues to be so shitty that users just reject any future attempts to do that.
That being said, if a large number of devs and users eventually adopted it, I would abandon gaming and stick with only native Linux games and vintage PC games that ran through Wine/Proton.
I refuse to use Windows for anything. And as much as I love gaming, I love my freedom, privacy, and rights as a user far more.
They’d probably feel the wrath of the EU if they tried that, hopefully. Also, I doubt Steam under the current management would do that since it would shoot them in the foot because they’d be giving up and abandoning the popular enough Steam Deck at that point. I’m sure they’ve made more than enough money back from it to not want to shoot themselves in the foot.
Hopefully, yes. But I’m sure MS and some hardware manufacturers salivate at the thought of being able to create a completely locked down computer platform. I own neither, but aren’t both iPhone and Playstation users locked into the manufacturers’ respective stores? Those seems to be perfectly legal in the EU.
I don’t think Playstation is unlocked when it comes to 3rd party stores, but I do remember a whole thing about Apple having to allow side loading of apps onto iPhones over there, so if that actually came true you would technically not be locked into the app store since you could side load another one. Not quite the same as being totally free to choose an app store, but close enough.
Hahahahahaha…
Sure.
Hopefully that would get a lot of developers to switch to Vulkan.
deleted by creator
They tried. It was called UWP, but it never caught on and Microsoft quickly realized nobody wanted to use their store or even bother with the new format, so all their games also have a normal x86 version.
Their main mistake was never trying to make their walled garden not suck ass. I would try to install things from the windows store just to see about it back when I was running windows and it took an infernally long time to open the store, search for an app, and then install that app.
After about a year of Linux and using package managers/AUR to install and update software, it blows my mind to think that I would ever choose to do it a different way.
I don’t know how I put up with that shit for so many years.
Oh for sure. Even the other traditional way of doing windows installs (finding an EXE or MSI and then downloading it) sucks ass. The only good way to do things on windows is with Choco lol
90% of the time apps would not even install or update for me. It was immensely annoying if I wanted to just send a quick message on WhatsApp, but I had to update, and then the update didn’t work. It just gets stuck on 99% completed for eternity.
Aside from the reasons stated by other people in this thread, purely destroying something isn’t really Microsoft’s MO. Theirs is
Extend, Embrace, ExtinguishEmbrace, Extend, Extinguish.You got that the wrong way round. It’s Embrace first, then Extend and Extinguish.
You’re right. Whoops. Haha. Thanks, I fixed it.
I think the time to do that has already passed; the Steam Deck and even Linux gaming in general has really taken off, so it would impact far more people than before. In addition, I think the EU has started breathing down their neck and will pounce on them if they do anything so blatantly monopolistic.
So this hypothetical “Direct X 15” would be limited to only Windows 11 users outside of europe, and the games wouldn’t be distributable through Steam. I can’t see that being a good pitch to developers, even if DirectX15 was really good.
They also tried this waay back in Windows 8 with the Windows Store, and it honestly was a flop.
Never underestimate the fleeting willpower of gamers in the face of exclusivity deals. It’s already captured a large section of the market (xbox consoles literally just run modified windows now) and will likely capture more. It’s all about adding enough of a marketing spin on it until the average gamer stops caring, or concedes the value proposition or their morals in favor of something they want more (like a next gen Skyrim reboot or something idk 🤷♂️)