I don’t know anything about cars.
Now that we have established that cars seriously undermine our privacy (look at the flurry of posts in this community in the last few hours), what can we do about it?
From a networking POV, if you remove the ability to connect to the Internet, it doesn’t matter what the car is recording as long as you can ensure there is no physical tampering. Depending on who you are, this is a good idea, and doable for the most part (very few people have the technical knowledge to pull out the right chip from a car).
So, how do we achieve this? I implore the community to invite mechanical/car engineers who can help us on this matter, and to form methods to prevent vehicles from accessing the Internet without express consent from the user.
Thanks!
A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.
Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.
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Most vehicle head units are still running a low power version of Java 6 and have difficulty with nested levels of DNS CNAMES. I wonder what other problems that Java stack has that can be exploited?
I hate that this is even a consideration, but is that even legal?
If you own the car; I would say it’s completely reasonable to modify it, as long as its still legaly able to drive after. In Germany your car needs to be regulary checked by TÜV to be street legal.
If this is legal probably depends on where you live, but I would be suprised if it’s illegal in any developed country. (Im not a lawyer btw.)
As far as I’m aware, so long as you have purchased it fully with no payments left on it or any loans used to finance it, there is absolutely nothing the car manufacturer or the place you bought it from can do besides void any warranty you have on it. And that’s if they figure out you removed the component.
Not gonna lie; everyone seems to be over-reacting to what is common practice in law documents; terms are overly broad for a reason, and undoubtedly if you dig in the case histories; you’ll probably find an absurd lawsuit or two on the books.
That said; I doubt the car is capable of collecting this data; but they can collect information you freely volunteer to them.
So how do we go about volunteering less information?
You agreed to tue terms in the contract you signed as part of your lease or purchase contract.
It would probably be easier and less damaging to find the fuse for the antenna/transmitter and pull it. That being said, it will probably stop the buttons on your keyfob from working. I think the keyless/touchless entry would still work. IIRC, that system works with active RFID near the door handles.
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Yes
Wrap the car in a large faraday cage? As a general rule it should be assumed that any device with a direct to internet connection capability has the potential to track the user, even of it’s at a very course level like IP history that in theory could be made more precise if the ISP was inclined to keep tabs on a mac address.
My own vehicle has the ability, if not the subscription, to use one of those manufacturer sponsored satilite connections. Plenty of new vehicles have such things as paid DLC and just lock it up behind software but the hardware is still there. Physical interferance through disconnecting the relevant modules in a clean reversible way has potential for some enterprising sort to either open a school or a specialty repair shop. Now if we could just do something about the phone the driver has with them at the same time.
I did something like that with my robot vacuum. I opened it up and ripped the soldered-on wifi card. Now I can’t control it from my phone, but it can’t phone home to Shark either. I was willing to risk it for a $400 robot vacuum, which I also happened to have a second defective one to practice on thanks to their return policy. I’m not sure if I’d attempt this on an electronics behemoth worth several thousands of dollars that I can’t afford to lose.
check out Valetudo
Unsure on the sharks but a lot of the roombas have an open source project (ha980?) that lets you run all the Apis locally and cut it off from the internet fully. Mines managed through home assistant now, it’s not perfect but it beats the heck out of that shitty iRobot app
Wouldn’t it have been easier to block it from accessing the internet through a firewall? And having a firewall helps you see what’s going on with the rest of your network.
What of you don’t connect it to WiFi?
I don’t think I could have set it up. After it was connected, there’s no way to disconnect it, which seems to be a growing tactic. I’ve seen several TVs that have no WiFi disconnect button.
A lot of these devices will refuse to complete setup, or will silently do meshnet type stuff with other devices from the same manufacturer just to get the collected data out
Probably not without bricking your car. I doubt they are gonna tell you how to disable the telemetry, and with how connected the systems are these days, if you break something the whole thing stops working.
That might help in some situations, but some of the data is stored on hard drives and retrieved later, either at dealerships or when police “request” it. I think it would take some invasive modifying to really render your car private.
Probably not a “hard drive”, as vibration and shock are common things that cars experience, and not something that a hard drive handles well.
Solid state is still a hard drive.
One of those big degaussing cables they use to make ships safe from sea mines
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I wish I were a billionaire. I would literally start a company that made cars, phones, tech of all kinds on the basic premise that I don’t give a fuck about you or your data. Make it private. Make it have no EULA that says anything beyond IP protections. Make it so consumers never have to worry about underhanded bullshit. Sure, I may not make tons of money, but I think I could be happy turning a small profit, paying employees fairly, and knowing that I am selling better products and undercutting all the assholes to send them careening directly I to the ground.
They thing to do is buy the rights to old designs, then open source them and sell them. It pisses me off no end I can’t find system diagrams, schematics or source code to think I apparently “own”. It keeps everyone ignorant and throwing stuff away to keep buying new. And now, with all going online, turns everything to a privacy nightmare . When the manufacture moves on to the next shiny, it will become part of internet of infected things botnets.
Can you make me a microwave that doesnt’t beep?
They do exist. Mine has a mute button. The keypad is awful though. I don’t remember the brand and not at home, but can look it up later
Bruh. Hold down the setup button. No more single tone screams of your meal is ready.
If that doesn’t work, there should be instructions for your brand online.
Or just open the side panel and pull the lead off the speaker. Hopefully they didn’t do something dumb like wire the speaker in series with the main power supply so to the computer so the whole thing doesn’t work if the speaker is disconnected or dies.
Eh, that might be why you’re not a billionaire
Perhaps. I like to blame my crippling ADHD and lack of generational wealth.
To become a billionaire you can’t have a moral compass from the start so it’s hard to imagine. I wish you well though, hope to buy one of your devices in future
Closest we have to a “unicorn” billionaire with some sort of moral compass is Linus Torvalds, if you ask me.
I think he is far from being a billionaire
How exactly are cars connecting to the internet? Cell providers give them free data?
It’s generally not much data. A 1GB/mo SIM with ten years service can be had for less than a €10 if you’re buying in bulk.
the oems pay for it. some offer basic features for free but charge for features like music streaming.
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I thought they would disable my esim after the grace period was over, they gave me the option to pay for a subscription and I said “Hell no!”. But I guess I’m more valuable driving that thing than I thought. So yeah, probably only hacking it to disable the esim.
What car is this?
Elantra
Never thought I’d see a day where people feel compelled to circumsize their cars
Bad analogy, removing network capabilities is actually beneficial to you.
Oh, like updog
What’s up dog?
I’ve always done this, it reduces the cars sensitivity so it lasts longer
Hmmm… something must be wrong with mine, it’s very vigorous but doesn’t last that long.
All that matters is that you like the car, and that it is trying its best <3
Even if it’s a Morris Marina?
Sincerely, the best thing consumers can do is to drive dumb cars and use them for as long as possible (cars aren’t like phones, and can work reliably for over a decade).
The best thing to do is to demand better public transportation and walk ability. We’ll always have some cars but we should move away from car dependence anyways.
I just bike to work.
Just ask the dealer to disconnect the modem upon purchase.
Better yet, refuse to buy shit you don’t own and make this known. Go to the dealer force them to stand around while you read the privacy agreement. Use an attorney because they have stupid legal agreements. Waste everyone’s time because they are the ones doing this to you. It must cost profit. Then walk away from this bullshit. Tell them why you are walking away.
All of this exists because people are too stupid to care. If you ignore this, you are one of them, and part of the problem. Legal agreements are theft and slavery. Signing them blindly is the stupidest thing you can ever do in your life. Anyone that needs a legal agreement for you to make a purchase is a worthless criminal. Signing their bullshit is saying you are okay with being their little slave bitch.
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Not noted internet super genius j4k3 though! So smart! Truly owns things! Not subject to any agreements.
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To put it simply, this may not even be something they can do legally. For instance, when the mach E came out they were having serious electrical issues. The electric battery has it’s own junction box. So much current was flowing through the contacts that they ended up fusing themselves open or closed. That basically disabled the vehicle. It was fixed with an OTA update. The update works through the same antennas and network you’re talking about. If a vehicle can’t receive an OTA and it affects the security of the vehicle/driver or poses a danger on public roads? Might be out of compliance with NHTSA or other authorities of similar spec in other countries.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/technology-innovation/vehicle-cybersecurity
They have no rights to anything I own. What they ship the vehicle with is what I bought. I don’t give a shit about anything anyone has to say about this. This feudalism bullshit is the absolute antithesis of freedom. I am not for sale.
I didn’t say they had a right to your data. I’m not defending them. I’m pointing out that cars these days (new ones especially) are as much device as they are machinery. And you absolutely do not want someone hacking your vehicle. And neither does the regulating federal authority in your country. As a result they put certain laws in place that may protect you from this possibility (being hacked), but also leave you open to being taken advantage of by the automaker (having your data taken without your permission).
Like the other person said, you are confusing the dealership and the manufacturer. This is the equivalent of those people that yelled at the teenagers working at chik filet. The dealership will just say they don’t create those rules and you’d have to take it up with the manufacturer, then ask you to leave. If you don’t leave and act like a jerk, they’ll just call the cops and have you escorted off premises.
Except it’s really not. Most of the dealerships around are thinly veiled fronts for the manufacturers. The salespeople are shills and scam artists who are specifically hired for their ability to pull the wool over people’s eyes. That poor sap working at Chik-fil-A is some minimum-wage kid who is about as complicit in the greater organization than the mop is. Dealerships are a mouthpiece for the very manufacturers who are patenting ways to make your care self repossess and are charging subscriptions for basic functions that are built into the cars.
The comparison is shallow and not at all reasonable.
lol no not at all. They are franchises, not fronts for the manufacturer. Everything you said is as wrong as can be.
I agree with your intentions, but no, the person working at the car dealership is not doing this to you. That person is just trying to get by, they’re not the MBA executive trying to squeeze every dollar out of humanity who you should be targeting
Maybe not, but they are the one who keeps leaving me alone in their office for 15 minutes at a time to “go ask their manager” if our negotiations are ok and they are the one who pretends to settle on a price with me and then tries to hard-sell me on all sorts of useless addons. And at they end of the day they are the one that turns making a purchase into a 4-hour process.
It has to irritate the GM of the dealership enough to file a report and work its way up the chain to the top. Unfortunately this is capitalism. It is no different than the military in that it sucks to be the person at the bottom of the shit pile but they work for criminals. If they don’t like it, quit working for criminals. Yes it is pervasive. But we are the problem. We are funding and enabling these people. You must make it extremely well known that you have money and you are not spending it because of this bullshit. No one else controls the market. We fund the entire thing with what we are willing to ignore and make excuses for. We must burn it to the ground too. That means stop being nice about the person working for the thief. Sorry; not sorry.
I think you think the manager of a dealership is going to care a lot more than you think they will. More likely they’re going to just ask you to leave after you start acting like a dick to their staff.
By causing a scene you are going to affect no change, more likely you’ll end up being mocked on Tik Tok. Write a letter to corporate explaining your decisions, sure, or petition for state or federal legislation; otherwise spend your money elsewhere. Only by funding alternatives are you going to impact the market outside of regulation
I didn’t say cause a scene. I spent nearly a decade painting cars for dealers. I have had close dealings with used car managers and general managers more than most people. Yes, any possible excuse about cars not selling over this kind of issue will be a leverage point that they will use when it comes to inventory. Just one sale lost over this will end up getting documented at most large dealers. All you need to do is read the document and say you are not okay with it and walk out because of it. No drama needed. This is intelligent. Signing your privacy away blindly is the only idiotic choice here.
I hope this is true, as I’m going to test that water soon. I’ll not purchase, and I’ll let them know why.