LexisNexis, which generates consumer risk profiles for the insurers, knew about every trip G.M. drivers had taken in their cars, including when they sped, braked too hard or accelerated rapidly.

Kenn Dahl says he has always been a careful driver. The owner of a software company near Seattle, he drives a leased Chevrolet Bolt. He’s never been responsible for an accident.

So Mr. Dahl, 65, was surprised in 2022 when the cost of his car insurance jumped by 21 percent. Quotes from other insurance companies were also high. One insurance agent told him his LexisNexis report was a factor.

LexisNexis is a New York-based global data broker with a “Risk Solutions” division that caters to the auto insurance industry and has traditionally kept tabs on car accidents and tickets. Upon Mr. Dahl’s request, LexisNexis sent him a 258-page “consumer disclosure report,” which it must provide per the Fair Credit Reporting Act.

What it contained stunned him: more than 130 pages detailing each time he or his wife had driven the Bolt over the previous six months. It included the dates of 640 trips, their start and end times, the distance driven and an accounting of any speeding, hard braking or sharp accelerations. The only thing it didn’t have is where they had driven the car.

On a Thursday morning in June for example, the car had been driven 7.33 miles in 18 minutes; there had been two rapid accelerations and two incidents of hard braking.

@dubyakay@lemmy.ca
link
fedilink
5
edit-2
4M

I work in fintech and I had glimpses of raw API data that credit agencies, Mastercard and LexisNexis provide (among others). It’s crazy detailed. Even just our query increases the query count by one and provides at least ten data points on the why and when.

I’m not surprised that the car manufacturers are selling this data to LexisNexis who in turn sell it to insurance companies.

Wrap the modem in tinfoil.

Not at all surprised by this. I sold my car a decade ago, I just hope motorcycles can stay dumb for longer.

258 pages?! That’s half of MS’s office format specification!

I will end up living in the woods at this rate.

I desperately wish I could be satisfied living such a life. I have wanted to disconnect completely for a couple of years already. But I know myself and I know I’d be ill-suited for such a life.

Stay outta my tree!

Planet Labs saves an image of the world – including whatever woods you’re referring to – at 3-meter resolution every day.

We need to start poisoning this data. I don’t think the solution is to cut the wires, I think it’s to send bogus data. Just make it so that no matter how I drive, the data is always overwritten that I traveled 5 miles at 30mph average with no hard stops and no hard accelerations. I only ever make that trip. Wanna base my insurance off that? Go for it.

Anyways I lack the technical ability to do this, but wonder if some enterprising person could hack the obd to constantly overwrite the data here.

Again I want to poison this data. It should be illegal, but it’s not. Companies will charge me more if I block it. So the solution is data poisoning imo.

Incidentally we need to be poisoning ALL data brokers and collectors for these types of things.

i think we should also flood them with so much data it cant keep upnandevendecipher what is really anymore. Same for computer habits. Flood it with random data.

Use AdNauseam

Incidentally we need to be poisoning ALL data brokers and collectors for these types of things.

Go here for a good start: https://adnauseam.io/

Thank you for sharing!!

I’ll take the route of I’m not going to own a car that will tell on me, or I will make that car not report.

tal
link
fedilink
154M

It might be nice if auto reviewers included a “privacy rating” for a vehicle based OK whether it broadcasts anything via radio (e.g. cell or tire-pressure systems can be used to identify someone). It’s not just auto manufacturers, but anyone who wants to set up a radio monitoring network, if there are unique IDs being broadcast.

I don’t know how a reviewer could know whether there’s a way for a manufacturer to gather logs during maintenance.

They’ll never give a review like that because they need manufacturers to send them more cars to review.

My auto insurance rose 27% this year. My cars sit in a locked garage 20ft away from me practically all week long as I work from home. I was shocked to find my rates rose so high as I barely even drive at all anymore. Their solution was for me to get their data collection puck. What a fucking racket!

Apparently a part of that is that EVs are more expensive to insurance companies, so they are spreading that cost around.
My insurance jumped by about 20% as well, after discounts from shopping around.
It cant just be EVs, but when i was searching this was the main reported factor.

Or, all the insurance companies just decided to massively bump rates

My understanding is that they all got together and decided to raise rates across the board.

Colluding?

Of course not, that would be illegal and immoral!

/s just in case

Used Vehicles became more valuable over the past few years as new vehicle production was issued halted in early 2020 and supply chain issues plagued manufacturers for a few years after that. Used car prices are just now starting to come down. I hardly ever saw cars for sale by owner that didn’t have over 200k miles on them and weren’t models plagued with major issues. People were still asking $5k for absolute junk. My advice over the past few years has been to buy a new car as it’s a much better value over any used car at the moment.

I bet you all the insurance companies are using a service that provides pricing via algorithms. In their opinion it’s not collusion, just math.

pricing via algorithms

This is essentially what all insurance is. Actuary tables, risk analysis, so forth. All math with the single purpose to ensure that over the whole risk pool, the House wins.

My completely uninformed guess is:

  1. we all forgot how to drive like normal people during/after lockdowns and,
  2. cars continue to get bigger and heavier, so accidents are more likely to result in total loss

Parts are plastic and cheaply made so more shit breaks when you get in an accident.

The reasoning they gave me is exactly that. People driving like crazy post pandemic, and the fact that cars have become exponentially expensive.

So what’s the results? Which generation is better at driving? Which age group is more conservative with fuel usage? Hmm?

They’re all bad. 20-50% rate increases across the board!

/s and I’m just stupid or is that really your key takeaway ?^^

Kinda like those who choose to be in the Progressive Insurance “Snapshot” program where you install an OBD2 dongle that reports a lot of data about your driving habits back to Progressive in the dim chance you drive so well that they will lower your rates.

Surely theres someone who has a rasberi pi that reports fake data to this thing? Yes, insurance company, I drive like a Grandma. You’re welcome, now give me my discount.

It’d be cool if you could tap into the OBD2 dongle and find what its criteria is that denotes “rapid accelerations” or “hard braking” and them reprogram it to dampen that curve and never report more than maybe 5% less than what would trigger an acceleration or braking flag

It’s fine till you have an accident. Then your completely fucked.

Those deals, at least over here, are generally aimed at new drivers. I actually agree with them, to a level. It lets the insurance company rapidly sort the safe drivers from the idiots, and so discriminate on prices. It also trains new drivers to be safer. I remember how fearless I was when starting out. The quicker we get new drivers out of that mindset, the better.

@millie@beehaw.org
link
fedilink
4
edit-2
4M

I feel like fraud is a big risk for, what, less than $100/mo? You can do better.

They’re literally an insurance company. They have lawyers coming out of their ears.

Is it fraud? Its your car and your data.

Its not fraud for me to change the user agent of my web browser.

I never sent this information to insurance companies. Not my problem if some company tracking me gets faulty info.

Big difference is consent.

Very true, I was focusing more on the story’s driver being “surprised” and “stunned” by the amount of data collected and that all that date didn’t convince an Insurance Company’s algorithm he was a driver worthy of paying them less than his current premium. I expect upwards of 90% of drivers would be stunned as well that they are not as good of a driver as they imagine and that “I’ve never having an accident” doesn’t carry as much weight with the algorithm as they might have hoped.

We don’t have to worry about the government tracking us everywhere we go. These corporations will do it for them and then sell the data for a proft.

The government buys your data, too. And not just your government.

For any legal case, government or your spouse’s divorce attorney, it’s a low bar to soupeana “business records” from these companies.

The US needs stronger data protection and privacy laws. Unfortunately, the corporations buy enough politicians to prevent it.

That’s right. The thing that anti-government people seem to forget is that, left unchecked, corporations are much worse than oppressive governments. Democratic Nations need to be vigilant of both.

Not will, do: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/28/government-buying-your-data-00143742

This is how you radicalize a populace. Fuckin stupid move.

Flock Safety has entered the chat

Unfortunately one of their customers is the government, so we still have to worry about that too.

What a great use of my tax dollars.

Louis Rossman has more than one video on the topic of newer cars that are basically always connected to the internet and all of the data harvesting they do. Here’s one

https://yewtu.be/watch?v=OYcmF9IAJbU

Is there any way you can sever that connection, or does it brick the car? I don’t want my car connected to anything. Ever.

@tal@lemmy.today
link
fedilink
6
edit-2
4M

On some vehicles, you can apparently disable it.

Here’s what one guy found works on a 2023 Corolla, where it’s getting increasingly-more-of-a-pain-in-the-ass than in earlier models:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/epzioGDOdTeo/

Apparently, it used to be possible to just pull a fuse out of the user-accessible fuse panel in prior years, but that got moved to some internal-to-the-dash panel that’s hard to get at.

It also apparently disables the microphone (which you may or may not want disabled) and the front driver’s side speaker unless you also run wire leads bypassing the DCM.

I’d also add that I don’t know for sure what any other impact is. I’d imagine that it voids your warranty. I don’t know if the car manufacturer relies on this communication mechanism to push out firmware updates for the car, but if so, I suppose that one might not get firmware updates.

I also don’t know whether the vehicle maintains local logs, even if it’s not uploading them, so I’d guess that someone who can get physical access to the car might be able to get ahold of data that might have been sent to the manufacturer via the cell network. I don’t know whether part of the maintenance process might also involve uploading logged data to the manufacturer; I could imagine that being the case.

Apparently some older Hyundais disable themselves, because they can’t speak newer cell phone protocols, and those older cell towers are going offline, which causes the connectivity to be severed.

https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/resources/blue-link/2g-3g-wireless-service-update

EDIT: Note that even aside from the telemetry, one point that a number of people brought up when I was reading about this is that apparently car tire pressure systems also do surprisingly-long-range radio broadcasts (i.e. they really only need to go from the tire to the rest of the car, but can be picked up miles away) with apparently a unique ID, so while it’s not phoning logged data home, if someone has a radio listening for it, they can detect and log unique identifiers of cars within range. If you have enough people with receivers participating in a network (the way people have with AIS for ships and ADS-B for aircraft), then you can build a map of where vehicles travel, particularly if you can correlate signal strength across multiple receivers.

I’d imagine that you could cross-correlate any unique IDs being broadcast over the radio with license plate numbers and an image of the vehicle if you stick a camera somewhere aimed at a high-volume road, like an interstate highway. A single encounter probably isn’t enough to link license plates or the like – there will be multiple vehicles in broadcast range. However, once a vehicle has passed such readers twice, that’s probably enough information to uniquely identify the vehicle, since it’d be unlikely to have two different vehicles both in range of the receiver at the same time. Any additional encounters with just add confidence. I don’t think that it’d take a great many such readers to get a national database built up pretty quickly.

considers

I suppose that if you can correlate that with personal cell phone IMEIs – cell phones broadcast unique identifiers in the clear that are linked to the phone, not just to the SIM – that you could also do a pretty good job of determining who rides in a given vehicle, which is probably commercially-useful information.

The issue is the cellular modem built into most cars nowadays. It can vary in difficulty to disable or remove, with the added bonus of potentially taking other services that are attached to it such as Bluetooth. It fucking sucks. I don’t know more details than that.

Am I the only one who doesn’t find this surprising. All these big car companies making drivable spyware and who would probably want that data? Insurance companies. This is why my first car I’m gonna tear out the modem.

Surprising? Hell no. Infuriating? Fuck yes. Your accident records should speak for themselves, not some bullshit algorithms calculating if yOu AcCelLerATeD ToO fASt or not. Get the fuck outta here with that baby shit.

I’m not surprised it happened, but a little surprised how quickly it happened. Most insurance companies still offer a plan where you voluntarily plug in a tracker to monitor your driving in exchange for lower rates if you’re a good driver, so it’s extra fucked that they’re doing the same thing to presumably everyone with an internet connected car without even telling them upfront, let alone getting consent.

deleted by creator

So basically all modern cars. There are methods to rip it out. It can be really complicated or easy depending on the model. I think some dealerships also have their own box.

It would seem that I’m going to be driving old cars until I die. I also like manual instruments and gauges that make sense. I don’t need to watch Netflix rolling along at 70mph. Before anyone schools me on my carbon footprint, I get 37mpg and a tank lasts me about a month.

Just got my 2014 RAV4 and I’m in love. I was using rentals between vehicles and Holy Fuck do I hate modern cars. WHY do we need a fucking DIAL for the gear shift? Or BUTTONS? Why do I need a fucking 18" display!!

Push button transmission? It’s been done before.

Of course back then distracted driving was digging through the box of 8 track cassettes.

I would argue that this is an improvement over modern designs because one can memorize the orientation of the buttons and change gears without looking. One time I was driving a Buick and I accidentally engaged the E-Brake because there is zero tactile difference between Drive and E-Brake. Having to constantly look at the very bottom of a display panel, with zero peripheral vision on the road whatsoever, to fuck with a row of toggles to change the cabin A/C because making everything completely uniform is fashionable is inexcusable to me. I think that these large infotainment systems should be banned from cars and only something large enough for a backup camera is really necessary. All these apps and displays and flashy animations are so badly distracting.

You’re 100% correct on the tactile difference in the buttons. I didn’t think of that. A similar complaint is every feature is a “button” on the infotainment screen. I saw this on a Dodge. My current car has no touchscreen and I have driven it long enough to just know where all the buttons are without looking. In my opinion, distracted driving should include these types of things that take your attention off of the road.

I was pissed that there was no aboiding getting an infotainment system in the car i bought last summer. 2015 Subaru Crosstrek has a sluggishly slow touchscreen that is a danger. Then i took a ride in my uncle’s 2022 Outback last year and it felt like a freaking slot machine at a casino. Every control ran through it and it was still disgustingly slow and sluggish.

These systems being as slow and shitty as they are should be illegal. Responsive controls or fuck off.

plz1
link
fedilink
1334M

“Sharing” is a funny way to word a headline. They are selling it, for a profit, because it’s legal. It’s immoral and shady as hell, but “prevent it or expect it” applies here.

Yeah should say “currently legalized sales of personal data” to emphasize that this sort of thing is illegal in many other regions.

HubertManne
link
fedilink
124M

meanwhile I have to pre fill out some forms so the sherrif office can track it if its stolen. It cracks me up how the government getting things is a big deal but corpos then no worries.

Create a post

A place to discuss privacy and freedom in the digital world.

Privacy has become a very important issue in modern society, with companies and governments constantly abusing their power, more and more people are waking up to the importance of digital privacy.

In this community everyone is welcome to post links and discuss topics related to privacy.

Some Rules

  • Posting a link to a website containing tracking isn’t great, if contents of the website are behind a paywall maybe copy them into the post
  • Don’t promote proprietary software
  • Try to keep things on topic
  • If you have a question, please try searching for previous discussions, maybe it has already been answered
  • Reposts are fine, but should have at least a couple of weeks in between so that the post can reach a new audience
  • Be nice :)

Related communities

Chat rooms

much thanks to @gary_host_laptop for the logo design :)

  • 0 users online
  • 57 users / day
  • 383 users / week
  • 1.5K users / month
  • 5.7K users / 6 months
  • 1 subscriber
  • 2.56K Posts
  • 61.9K Comments
  • Modlog