Recently, i had to move from nixos to windows against my will simpy because of anti cheats. While i dont game that much, the few games i enjoy playing are all online with some kind of anti cheat. I used to dual boot but i was tired of having to wait for my slow hdd to load windows (i only have one ssd). I literally used linux for everything else but because of anti cheats i am forced to move to windows. I managed to make it a little better by using wsl2 and removing bloatware but it will never be the same as linux
Sometimes you have to choose between what is convenient and what is right, and sometimes that means giving things up. But not everyone is willing or able to do that. It’s fine, do what you feel you need to.
Honestly, I’d rather the anti cheat be there. Playing a game with a bunch of cheaters ruins the game. Not wanting to play it is equal to not buying it in the first place in terms of enjoyment. So I’d rather have strong anti cheat on Linux. Anti cheat doesn’t ruin the game, you are still able to enjoy it.
But this is also why I think supporting native Linux builds is better. If they are supporting native Linux builds they are supporting Linux as a platform. With proton the developers don’t think about Linux. Proton overall has kind of hurt Linux support because it means no one thinks about the platform anymore.
I play League of Legends via Proton. I assume it has an anti cheat and I never had issues with cheaters/hackers. I refuse to believe they need kernel level anti cheat for valorant. Not that I care about shooters.
If you refuse to believe it then my 10 years of making fast-paced shooters won’t change your mind. League uses a userland-level anti-cheat that is easily broken. This is why most of their hacking detection is server-side. Also, reaction time doesn’t really play a huge factor in League. So as long as it’s within human range, the cheaters can go undetected since Rio believes that using cheats to get you high human reactions “defeats the purpose of cheating.” as documented here: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-anti-cheat-in-lol-more/
So overall, shooters are much faster and require client-side authority to feel good. In league, the game is slow enough to wait for the server to tell you what happened. In something like Overwatch, the clients report what happened. When you have that level of fidelity you need that level of trust. But you don’t care about shooters, so don’t worry about it. You can make your flawed argument that all games can be league and all anti-cheat systems can focus on league-like gameplay.
Most developers don’t support their native Linux release at all. You’ll download an automatic update, and suddenly the game doesn’t even start; check the forum and find out, they never even tested the Linux build, it’s just all automatic, and it’s gonna take a couple of weeks before they get their linux box updated and working again so they can fix it because their one linux guy is working on something else. It’s crap. Proton has been a massive improvement in game reliability.
Really? Do you have an example of this with non early access games? I’ve personally never seen this happen and I’m my experience when a studio supports a platform they buy a computer to run the game on for that platform. I can only assume this was an experience with some very indie game?
Native builds on steam are by default picked over proton. You might be playing great native builds without realizing. Although since 2016 native build support has gone way down. Even before proton came out.
My experience with native Linux ports has been kinda bad actually. I usually don’t play AAA games so maybe that explains it. But Black Mesa or Psychonauts are better on proton. Could be true though, that those are just the ones I noticed. But If I can choose I usually go for the Proton version, seems to be more reliable. It’s a shame though.
My guess is that because those games target DirectX during development then they add a native build at the end that uses Opengl. What Proton does is take the DirectX version and route it to Vulkan. So it’s potentially just the Vulkan usage being better than actually Proton itself.
Client-side anti-cheat is the way to go for this. You need to, at some level, trust the client to get good feeling gameplay. Otherwise, you’ll end up with the Counter-Strike style missing. Where bullets on the client hit the head, the head shows blood but the target doesn’t get damaged. If you don’t trust the client, you are going to get pop-tarting where someone jumps over a wall/hill/etc. and shoots, and because the only physics that matters is server side, they are already down under the thing they shot over. There are strong reasons why Six Siege, Valorant, Overwatch, Squad, and almost any modern shooter trust the client but put anti-cheat on it. Server-side checking can only do so much.
Overall what runs on the client is going to be 1 frame behind at least of what runs on the server. Usually far more due to latency. So the only answer is client-side anti-cheat. Now let’s talk about the “invasive” part. The only way to securely ensure there are no third-party applications affecting your play is to tie into the kernel and a definitive process list. Otherwise, anyone could just prevent the process list from being accurate. So you then need kernel-level modules to report and secure the client.
There is another method that is rarely enacted. Hysterics, simply if you do too well on a game, you get banned. Have 99% Headshots? Banned. Have higher reaction times than most people? Banned. It’s a real big brother solution. That’s what you really should be fighting against. Banning people from games without solid proof but just statistical evidence that they shouldn’t be that good. This is mainly been the focus on combating those controller automation cheat systems. It also means people who use macros can get banned.
All in all though, if you aren’t doing client-side kernel-level anti-cheat then your game at this point is filled with cheaters. It’s exactly why Counter-Strike has ESEA and Faceit which both require kernel-level anti-cheat to replace VAC which doesn’t have kernel-level hooks and is easily by-passed. Thus CSGO’s matchmaking is filled with cheaters where anyone using EAC has a relatively cheater-free game.
NVMe drives have become to inexpensive recently I just bit the bullet and dual-boot windows from it’s own drive. Takes less than ten seconds to switch.
Just make sure you physically disconnect all other storage devices while installing windows. The windows boot loader seems to make itself comfy on any drive it can find.
Honestly something I’m surprised no game is doing is embrace the hackers.
For example, create a HvH gamemode where users can use lua scripts to aid them. I bet this would turn a lot of people away from the actual cheating scene.
this might (barely) work for Source games like CS:GO, TF2, etc but on games like Overwatch, Valorant, Fortnite, etc there are a lot less exploits that would keep HvH actually interestering like fake angles, doubletap, etc like there are in the Source Engine (mind you this is because the engine is literally from 2003 and based on Goldsrc which is based on the damn Quake engine.)
also this did exist for a while in cs:go TECHNICALLY, wingman in CSGO had overwatch disabled (when they were collecting data for vac.net) for almost a year and was literally just used to hvh but it never stopped people from cheating in competitive.
Good point! I honestly only have experience with Minecraft where the vanilla anti cheat is so bad it is often disabled and there are quite a few interesting ways to cheat (Cristal PvP, baritone, etc), so my perspective is limited by that.
However, I feel like if a game has mechanics with enough depth and achieving TAS like gameplay gave a significant advantage, I think, at least for those wanting to develop cheats, it could be fun.
Also, I’m not saying this would prevent cheating in competitive play, but it could give developers more insight into how cheats can be used (like with your example). Cheaters are not a monolith, but I don’t want to repeat my other comment :P
Cheaters are sociopaths. Most of them pretend to be good and post clips or try to get a following until they inevitably get banned.
Every script kiddie says this same thing. There are already HvH servers. Barely anyone plays them. If a company had official HvH it would encourage cheating. Fuck cheaters…
definitely not all cheaters are sociopaths, been in the cheating community since 2014-ish (starting to slowly back off and leave recently just due to the the obvious toxicity in it) and have made plenty of genuinely great friends there but ofc it is mostly horrible people, especially the people who closet and hide it from friends. do agree that this plan would never work though, but HvH was never really dead, it was at its peak in 2020 where there were probably 200+ people playing although it’s really only active in EU now.
Cheating via a lua script integrated into a game is waaaay different to cheating via external software, though mainly from the cheat developers side, less so from the users side, as you need to “fight” the anti-cheat.
Also, I think that considering all cheaters selfish (what is what I think you meant by calling cheaters sociopaths, see below) and bad at the game, really limits ones perspective, as not everyone hacks for the same reason. These reasons include:
Believing one needs cheats to stay competitive (either because one believes others are cheating or because, as you mentioned, due to lack of abilities)
For profit (to produce accounts with high value / tradable items/currency or to develop and sell cheats)
Due to frustration with progress towards a goal (often overlaps with #1, especially for players which are good at the game)
Enjoyment in breaking the games limits (note that this doesn’t decrease much in HvH)
The feeling of being more powerful than other players (often overlaps with #1, but also overlaps with smurfing)
For a sense of community (among other hackers, overlap with #2 or among mainstream players, overlap with #1 & #3)
Full disclosure, for me #4 and #5 are the most appealing, with the first two not being that appealing. Note that #1 and #3, are as applicable, if not more sometimes, to high skill players as to low skill players. Two examples I can give of the top of my head are the 2021 trackmania cheating scandal and the Hypixel skyblock dungeon speedruning scene. In both cases there were competitive scenes that (at least from an outsiders point of view) seem legitimate, but a lot of top players all use cheats. Also note that players motivated by #2 are less affected with a pay wall, which could even make them cheat more.
Why one cheats can also impact how one cheats. A player motivated by #1 and #3 is likely to hide their cheats (aka silent cheating I think?) while a player motivated by #2 or #5 may cheat in a way which is obvious to other players and they might not mind getting banned.
Also also, players who are more skilled at the game, can not only take a fuller advantage of cheats but also be more difficult to detect, as they know what they can get away with.
As for your usage of the word sociopath, which I don’t think is accurate, though I don’t blame you for it, mind you: antisocial personality disorder (the formal diagnosis for someone referred to as a sociopath), is an actual mental condition and using it because someone does not show empathy and/or seeks attention (which is not even a symptom of ASPD, I think you may be confusing it with narcissistic personality disorder?), not only flattens your understanding of the disorder but also raises a bad assumption: while a person with ASPD may find it harder to understand why certain actions are considered bad by others, that’s not an excuse for them to be abusive etc. The same applies to the common usage of narcissist/narcissistic.
TL;DR: IMHO what you said is an oversimplification which may make reducing the number of cheaters in competitive spaces more difficult.
It wouldn’t get rid of the issue, I agree. But it would divert some of the cheating community away from fighting against the developers to playing by the developers rules.
Treating all cheaters as a monolith is really limiting which is kinda my point haha
Linux is inherently less “secure” to developers. They have to sacrifice anti-chest efficiency to enable them on Linux, which is a tradeoff most aren’t willing to make.
Most every game I play requires me to stay on windows. I don’t really get any enjoyment out of single player games anymore. So windows stays as the primary OS and that’s likely never going to change.
But it’s not. Easy anti-cheat, for example, works on Linux. The problem isn’t with Linux, it’s that developers don’t target Linux, so their anti-cheat systems don’t work on Linux.
And that’s fine with me, though it would help Linux adoption if those games worked on Linux. But it’s not an inherent limitation of Linux, it’s just something devs need to proactively support.
Well yeah, you can’t expect a third-party anti-cheat to solve all of your problems, each game is going to have idiosyncrasies.
I think Valve’s Overwatch system is a fantastic example of ways to innovate without compromising a user’s security or requiring platform-specific cheat detection. It’s probably not enough on its own (those reviewers need data), but to me it’s preferable to something more invasive like BattleEye. A lot of that can be done server-side, by running player movements through an AI model that detects players that fit certain patterns, or don’t fit common patterns.
So EAC works, but it works at a different level than it does on windows. EAC does become less secure on both platforms when Linux support is enabled from my understanding. BattleEye, Vanguard and Riots AC don’t work on Linux either, which is a significant portion of major games right now.
I’d argue it is an inherent limitation of Linux, as it’s so open that it’s harder to validate a user isn’t using 3rd party programs to cheat.
I think it’s an inherent limitation of client-side anticheat.
I think initiatives like Valve’s Overwatch system is a much better approach because it relies on players who have a stake in eliminating cheaters instead of a constant war against whatever flavor of the week cheating engine people are using. Pair that with an AI model that looks for patterns (both whether players fit cheating patterns or don’t fit expected patterns) and player-jurors will have enough information to make a call.
But that kind of initiative takes more effort than just integrating an off-the-shelf anti-cheat system, it forces companies to actually care about how their game runs on customer machines.
Personally I find Overwatch a horrible idea. It’s not terribly effective and relies on players, who are particularly unreliable at determining if someone is cheating. I believe those decisions should be entirely out of the hands of the players.
AI is still to expensive to run checks on every action that every player makes. Also any sort of automated system can’t be clearly banning people.
It doesn’t need to be realtime, as long as the cheaters get caught after some days. So take samples from every player and run them through a learning algorithm and take more samples the more suspicious someone is.
The more important thing is how you deal with cheaters once you find them. I really like the idea of increasing lag to cheaters instead of outright banning them so you waste their time more than anything. And then if you find out they’re not cheating, it’s easy to just drop them from the pool.
I primarily play competitive fps games. They’re more or less the only genre of gaming that’s any kind of fun anymore imo.
I don’t enjoy single player games. I own literally thousands of dollars of indie/AA single player games that I don’t enjoy, so I’ve stopped buying new ones. I’m simply not interested in non-competitive games. They’re not fun and I’d rather not play them.
You’re essentially the opposite from me. I keep trying MP and it just doesn’t click for me. I played Rocket League a bit with friends, but after 20-30 hours, I got tired of it and didn’t pick it up again. I used to love FPS MP, but it just feels so repetitive these days. I’ve tried MP strategy games, and it’s just the same repetitive thing. It becomes more about flawless performance of the same task and less about experiencing something new.
I love SP games with good story, unique gameplay, or immersive atmosphere. There’s just so much variety in the AA and indie space that there’s always something new to experience.
I haven’t played any of the recent big MP games, and I’m much more satisfied as a gamer than I was when i played them.
I guess I don’t see the appeal anymore. But then the are people who are the exact opposite and see the appeal of SP gaming. And I think that’s interesting.
Repetitive is honestly what I like about them. I don’t need to think about a story, don’t need to follow any path and don’t need to think. New experiences mean paying attention to a story I really don’t care about or mechanics that aren’t really mechanically complicated, just puzzles.
I play games to turn off my brain and do better at something. Chasing that flawless performance is what makes the games fun for me. I’ve played nearly 4000 hours of Apex Legends in the last 5 years. (Granted a majority was during the pandemic where I was playing every day for 6-12 hours) and continue to play, even though it’s getting a little stale.
To be honest I don’t care about story in 75% of the movies I watch either. So I think it’s just a personality trait. And also probably the super sever ADHD
Interesting, because that’s pretty much exactly the opposite of why I play games.
When I want to get good at something, I go to work. My job is pretty repetitive, but there’s a ton of room for improving my skillsets, and periodically there are new challenges. If that’s not cutting it, I’ll exercise. But playing the same game over and over feels really bad to me, so I just don’t do it. The only two games I have >100 hours recorded in are Europa Universalis IV and Cities Skylines, the first is because I really like playing different countries (I have >800 hours) and the second is because I like trying different city structures. Even then, after a campaign, I need a few weeks or even months before I play again. I get bored in RPGs when I get too OP, though I’ll stick around if the story is interesting.
So I’m always looking for a new experience, hence why I play so many indie games.
I’m a developer, so my day-to-day work is very much “new” every week. When I go home I definitely want something repetitive and easy. I’ve never had a problem doing repetitive tasks in gaming. I played exclusively modded minecraft for 6 years, so this is nothing new to me.
I honestly think the last Single Player game I completed was Bioshock Infinite when it released. (And Doom Eternal I think) Most of the time when a game is released and I buy it I’ll get 5-10 hours in and get supremely bored of the mechanics.
I’m getting home and explicitly not looking for new experiences, so I definitely see where we’re different there.
I’m a developer too, so I guess just different strokes for different folks.
I really like developing software, so half the time I’ll work on a personal project or something when I get home (work is team lead for Python and TypeScript, hobbies are Rust or Godot), and the rest I’ll split between reading/writing books and playing video games. I lose interest in projects, books, and games easily, so I tend to be constantly looking for something new.
Different strokes I guess. I’m quite introverted, so it’s more draining for me to play MP than a complex puzzle game or a “git gud” game like Dark Souls.
Personally I don’t really enjoy multiplayer games much because they are all so stale nowadays.
I guess I grew up with dedicated servers, map editors, and mods coming out all the time but most of the modern ones are so fixed on DLC and battlepasses.
With the exception of the false positive ban wave reported a few days ago, Apex Legends has played flawlessly on Linux for the last couple of years. According to comments on protondb, Fall Guys also appears to be working fine, including multiplayer with anti-cheat. I’m not trying to tell you that you shouldn’t run Windows if you want to, but perhaps you didn’t fully explore all options?
If you switch back to Linux you could suggest Shatterline to your broke friends. It’s f2p and had no issues with anti-cheat last time I tried it. I think Overwatch 2 is also f2p.
I tried playing fall guys back in the days but it needed a few tweaks and it just didn’t work. Maybe it has changed so idk. Also thanks for your suggestions i’ll try them and see if i can switch back to nixos
I’m not judging, as I said I was curious.
I get it though, Apex just had a Linux ban wave, Fortnite well, it’s owned by Epic and Fall Guys to my knowledge requires editing AC files so Windows in your case is more convenient
Hey, I like some backstreet songs. Just like in music, if you just like what you like and don’t let people tell you differently you’ll have a more healthy relationship with your own opinion. Like what you like and don’t be ashamed.
I think what you meant to write is “online games with anticheat are the worst thing”.
Because “online anticheat” is becoming a thing wherein the anticheat system is run on a remote server and not your local system. Not only does it not need to install malware on your local system, but it does a better job at catching cheaters.
I could be wrong but I believe most games (e.g: Fairfight in all EA games) do have a server-side anti-cheats, just not very effective ones because they like for EAC/BE to do most of the work.
No, you’re not wrong, but like you said they don’t really do much. But what I’m talking about is fully functional server-side anticheat. Check this out Waldo Vision. I skipped past the intro, cause that had WAN Show clips, which haven’t aged well…
Which is fine, but it isn’t a perfect strategy, because developers and publishers have complete control to replace the client at any time to add features you decline to use, and you are not automatically entitled to a refund if that happens.
Not every game on Steam has DRM. Lots will let you just copy your entire install directory to another machine and play without logging in to your account.
I could stop playing these games right now. As i said i’m don’t use my computer for gaming that much. I could be perfectly satisfied with only minecraft. But i play them with the homies and i can’t let them down
Not sure why there are so many downvotes. Are there really that many people in here of all places who think gaming is just triple-A games from companies that don’t respect their players and nothing else?
I don’t like it because that’s the kind of elitist attitude that turns away new people from checking out Linux gaming. Imagine that as a response to “Hey I play these games and am interested in Linux”. You’re going to tell them: “switch to Linux and give up those games and if you don’t you’re not committed enough”?
It’s gatekeeping “console-wars” fanboy mentality. Like a Linux Playstation fan attacking someone for playing an Windows Xbox Exclusive. As if that’s supposed to be their whole identity, and not just a way to play video games.
There’s nothing wrong with having multiple consoles; there’s nothing wrong with dual-booting.
Those anti cheat games usually need to opt in to supporting Proton/WINE. For Easy Anti Cheat (perhaps the biggest one out there), devs just need to tick a build option to support it, but then they feel obligated to do QA for it, so the option stays off until the higher ups decide to formally support that configuration.
So it’s not that it’s hard to mess it up, it’s just hard to convince higher ups to allow their game to work on Linux.
If a AAA MP game doesn’t work on Linux, it’s probably intentional.
I don’t think I would consider “games with anti cheat” to be “every pleasure in life”. We’re spoiled for choice in games. I can increasingly narrow the scope of what I’m willing to support with my money every year and still not run out of great games to play.
I figured the “open source gods” line would have given away that I was being hyperbolic.
We’re talking about online multiplayer games. Unless all of your friends are in the same camp as you, have fun playing not playing with them.
DRM, especially the always online kind, is shit. I get that and I agree. But to act like OP is weak for wanting to play the games that have it is EXACTLY the dismissive shit that turns people away from the FOSS community. It’s gross and I hate it, get off your high horse (not you in particular) and have a real conversation with a person who comes with an earnest question, don’t tell them they “buckled”
Unless all of your friends are in the same camp as you, have fun playing not playing with them.
You won’t play everything with your friends, but you probably don’t have a 100% overlap in interest in which games you play anyway. Plus, a friendly suggestion goes a long way. “Hey, want to play Quake now that it just got remastered?” or “I just found this game X, and it’s on sale. It’s kind of like Y but with Z. Want to check it out with me?” And yes, I knew you were being hyperbolic, but I think you were serious when you were saying you were denying yourself some pleasure rather than sticking to some principle. And the value of that principle is going to vary from person to person, so I also agree with you on the “buckling”, but there’s just so much to play out there that one criterion is unlikely to be a deal-breaker given the breadth of games available.
I mean you’re basically saying “it’s different for everyone so do what you want” which is very different than calling OP spineless for wanting to play games that don’t work on Linux. I’m not arguing that the best games require Windows or that nothing else is worth playing - I’m saying it’s arrogant and idiotic to insult someone over wanting to play.
@glimse
I’d have said that cheating is the worst. Especially in the light of all the measures the software studios have to take to protect honest gamers from being taken advantage of. @ampersandrew
I’m personally not interested in MP anyway, but I will occasionally play if there’s a Linux compatible game on offer, but I’ll probably burn out after a few sessions anyway. For example, I used to play L4D and similar co-op games with friends, but I got bored after finishing the campaign, so I bailed when they were still playing together.
There are plenty of MP games out there that work on Linux, and I’ve played several of them with friends. The big MP games just don’t interest me.
So it’s less “stand up for Linux” and more “stand up for yourself.” If you don’t like a game your friends like, for whatever reason, feel free to just not play it. I recommend suggesting something else that does interest you. We got into a rut and it turned out my friends didn’t really like the games we were playing anyway, so recommending something else really spiced up our gaming time. Try it out and see what works.
But if you really want to play something, I don’t see a problem with firing up Windows from time to time. I have it installed on my system as well, I just haven’t used it in a year or two, but it’s there if I need it.
Sure, and I’m not arguing with you, merely giving a perspective that perhaps going with the group doesn’t always get you what you want. If you value using a given OS more than playing a certain set of games with friends, that’s an absolutely fine take. There are lots of options between the extremes of “don’t play MP games at all” and “only use Windows for gaming.”
If you don’t want to play a specific game for some reason, don’t play that game, even if all of your friends try to force you to.
Same here. I’ve only a Linux machine for over a decade but I had to go out and buy Windows just so I could play on FaceIT. I’m praying that cs2 supports Linux and the MM experience is good enough to make FaceIT obsolete.
@fhein@CeeBee In the EU, you can sell used software licences afaik. I bought windows 10 a few times, really cheap. With office 2019, and one time with office 2021.
Sometimes you have to choose between what is convenient and what is right, and sometimes that means giving things up. But not everyone is willing or able to do that. It’s fine, do what you feel you need to.
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Honestly, I’d rather the anti cheat be there. Playing a game with a bunch of cheaters ruins the game. Not wanting to play it is equal to not buying it in the first place in terms of enjoyment. So I’d rather have strong anti cheat on Linux. Anti cheat doesn’t ruin the game, you are still able to enjoy it.
But this is also why I think supporting native Linux builds is better. If they are supporting native Linux builds they are supporting Linux as a platform. With proton the developers don’t think about Linux. Proton overall has kind of hurt Linux support because it means no one thinks about the platform anymore.
I play League of Legends via Proton. I assume it has an anti cheat and I never had issues with cheaters/hackers. I refuse to believe they need kernel level anti cheat for valorant. Not that I care about shooters.
If you refuse to believe it then my 10 years of making fast-paced shooters won’t change your mind. League uses a userland-level anti-cheat that is easily broken. This is why most of their hacking detection is server-side. Also, reaction time doesn’t really play a huge factor in League. So as long as it’s within human range, the cheaters can go undetected since Rio believes that using cheats to get you high human reactions “defeats the purpose of cheating.” as documented here: https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-anti-cheat-in-lol-more/
So overall, shooters are much faster and require client-side authority to feel good. In league, the game is slow enough to wait for the server to tell you what happened. In something like Overwatch, the clients report what happened. When you have that level of fidelity you need that level of trust. But you don’t care about shooters, so don’t worry about it. You can make your flawed argument that all games can be league and all anti-cheat systems can focus on league-like gameplay.
Most developers don’t support their native Linux release at all. You’ll download an automatic update, and suddenly the game doesn’t even start; check the forum and find out, they never even tested the Linux build, it’s just all automatic, and it’s gonna take a couple of weeks before they get their linux box updated and working again so they can fix it because their one linux guy is working on something else. It’s crap. Proton has been a massive improvement in game reliability.
Really? Do you have an example of this with non early access games? I’ve personally never seen this happen and I’m my experience when a studio supports a platform they buy a computer to run the game on for that platform. I can only assume this was an experience with some very indie game?
I don’t have a recent example because Proton always works (when it works).
Native builds on steam are by default picked over proton. You might be playing great native builds without realizing. Although since 2016 native build support has gone way down. Even before proton came out.
My experience with native Linux ports has been kinda bad actually. I usually don’t play AAA games so maybe that explains it. But Black Mesa or Psychonauts are better on proton. Could be true though, that those are just the ones I noticed. But If I can choose I usually go for the Proton version, seems to be more reliable. It’s a shame though.
My guess is that because those games target DirectX during development then they add a native build at the end that uses Opengl. What Proton does is take the DirectX version and route it to Vulkan. So it’s potentially just the Vulkan usage being better than actually Proton itself.
Anti-cheat as a concept is fine but invasive client-side anti cheat just aren’t it.
Client-side anti-cheat is the way to go for this. You need to, at some level, trust the client to get good feeling gameplay. Otherwise, you’ll end up with the Counter-Strike style missing. Where bullets on the client hit the head, the head shows blood but the target doesn’t get damaged. If you don’t trust the client, you are going to get pop-tarting where someone jumps over a wall/hill/etc. and shoots, and because the only physics that matters is server side, they are already down under the thing they shot over. There are strong reasons why Six Siege, Valorant, Overwatch, Squad, and almost any modern shooter trust the client but put anti-cheat on it. Server-side checking can only do so much.
Overall what runs on the client is going to be 1 frame behind at least of what runs on the server. Usually far more due to latency. So the only answer is client-side anti-cheat. Now let’s talk about the “invasive” part. The only way to securely ensure there are no third-party applications affecting your play is to tie into the kernel and a definitive process list. Otherwise, anyone could just prevent the process list from being accurate. So you then need kernel-level modules to report and secure the client.
There is another method that is rarely enacted. Hysterics, simply if you do too well on a game, you get banned. Have 99% Headshots? Banned. Have higher reaction times than most people? Banned. It’s a real big brother solution. That’s what you really should be fighting against. Banning people from games without solid proof but just statistical evidence that they shouldn’t be that good. This is mainly been the focus on combating those controller automation cheat systems. It also means people who use macros can get banned.
All in all though, if you aren’t doing client-side kernel-level anti-cheat then your game at this point is filled with cheaters. It’s exactly why Counter-Strike has ESEA and Faceit which both require kernel-level anti-cheat to replace VAC which doesn’t have kernel-level hooks and is easily by-passed. Thus CSGO’s matchmaking is filled with cheaters where anyone using EAC has a relatively cheater-free game.
I just refuse to buy any games with client side anti cheat. It’s just too much of a security and privacy risk to have those rootkits on my computers.
NVMe drives have become to inexpensive recently I just bit the bullet and dual-boot windows from it’s own drive. Takes less than ten seconds to switch.
Just make sure you physically disconnect all other storage devices while installing windows. The windows boot loader seems to make itself comfy on any drive it can find.
Honestly something I’m surprised no game is doing is embrace the hackers.
For example, create a HvH gamemode where users can use lua scripts to aid them. I bet this would turn a lot of people away from the actual cheating scene.
this might (barely) work for Source games like CS:GO, TF2, etc but on games like Overwatch, Valorant, Fortnite, etc there are a lot less exploits that would keep HvH actually interestering like fake angles, doubletap, etc like there are in the Source Engine (mind you this is because the engine is literally from 2003 and based on Goldsrc which is based on the damn Quake engine.)
also this did exist for a while in cs:go TECHNICALLY, wingman in CSGO had overwatch disabled (when they were collecting data for vac.net) for almost a year and was literally just used to hvh but it never stopped people from cheating in competitive.
Good point! I honestly only have experience with Minecraft where the vanilla anti cheat is so bad it is often disabled and there are quite a few interesting ways to cheat (Cristal PvP, baritone, etc), so my perspective is limited by that.
However, I feel like if a game has mechanics with enough depth and achieving TAS like gameplay gave a significant advantage, I think, at least for those wanting to develop cheats, it could be fun.
Also, I’m not saying this would prevent cheating in competitive play, but it could give developers more insight into how cheats can be used (like with your example). Cheaters are not a monolith, but I don’t want to repeat my other comment :P
Cheaters are sociopaths. Most of them pretend to be good and post clips or try to get a following until they inevitably get banned.
Every script kiddie says this same thing. There are already HvH servers. Barely anyone plays them. If a company had official HvH it would encourage cheating. Fuck cheaters…
definitely not all cheaters are sociopaths, been in the cheating community since 2014-ish (starting to slowly back off and leave recently just due to the the obvious toxicity in it) and have made plenty of genuinely great friends there but ofc it is mostly horrible people, especially the people who closet and hide it from friends. do agree that this plan would never work though, but HvH was never really dead, it was at its peak in 2020 where there were probably 200+ people playing although it’s really only active in EU now.
Cheating via a lua script integrated into a game is waaaay different to cheating via external software, though mainly from the cheat developers side, less so from the users side, as you need to “fight” the anti-cheat.
Also, I think that considering all cheaters selfish (what is what I think you meant by calling cheaters sociopaths, see below) and bad at the game, really limits ones perspective, as not everyone hacks for the same reason. These reasons include:
Full disclosure, for me #4 and #5 are the most appealing, with the first two not being that appealing. Note that #1 and #3, are as applicable, if not more sometimes, to high skill players as to low skill players. Two examples I can give of the top of my head are the 2021 trackmania cheating scandal and the Hypixel skyblock dungeon speedruning scene. In both cases there were competitive scenes that (at least from an outsiders point of view) seem legitimate, but a lot of top players all use cheats. Also note that players motivated by #2 are less affected with a pay wall, which could even make them cheat more.
Why one cheats can also impact how one cheats. A player motivated by #1 and #3 is likely to hide their cheats (aka silent cheating I think?) while a player motivated by #2 or #5 may cheat in a way which is obvious to other players and they might not mind getting banned.
Also also, players who are more skilled at the game, can not only take a fuller advantage of cheats but also be more difficult to detect, as they know what they can get away with.
As for your usage of the word sociopath, which I don’t think is accurate, though I don’t blame you for it, mind you: antisocial personality disorder (the formal diagnosis for someone referred to as a sociopath), is an actual mental condition and using it because someone does not show empathy and/or seeks attention (which is not even a symptom of ASPD, I think you may be confusing it with narcissistic personality disorder?), not only flattens your understanding of the disorder but also raises a bad assumption: while a person with ASPD may find it harder to understand why certain actions are considered bad by others, that’s not an excuse for them to be abusive etc. The same applies to the common usage of narcissist/narcissistic.
TL;DR: IMHO what you said is an oversimplification which may make reducing the number of cheaters in competitive spaces more difficult.
using LUA is an interesting idea to say the least but again likely wouldn’t prevent or demotivate current cheaters from doing their thing.
It wouldn’t get rid of the issue, I agree. But it would divert some of the cheating community away from fighting against the developers to playing by the developers rules.
Treating all cheaters as a monolith is really limiting which is kinda my point haha
deleted by creator
There’s unfortunately not much to do.
Linux is inherently less “secure” to developers. They have to sacrifice anti-chest efficiency to enable them on Linux, which is a tradeoff most aren’t willing to make.
Most every game I play requires me to stay on windows. I don’t really get any enjoyment out of single player games anymore. So windows stays as the primary OS and that’s likely never going to change.
But it’s not. Easy anti-cheat, for example, works on Linux. The problem isn’t with Linux, it’s that developers don’t target Linux, so their anti-cheat systems don’t work on Linux.
And that’s fine with me, though it would help Linux adoption if those games worked on Linux. But it’s not an inherent limitation of Linux, it’s just something devs need to proactively support.
Correction, EAC barely works on linux. Apex is just safer because Respawn themselves are putting in some effort.
Well yeah, you can’t expect a third-party anti-cheat to solve all of your problems, each game is going to have idiosyncrasies.
I think Valve’s Overwatch system is a fantastic example of ways to innovate without compromising a user’s security or requiring platform-specific cheat detection. It’s probably not enough on its own (those reviewers need data), but to me it’s preferable to something more invasive like BattleEye. A lot of that can be done server-side, by running player movements through an AI model that detects players that fit certain patterns, or don’t fit common patterns.
So EAC works, but it works at a different level than it does on windows. EAC does become less secure on both platforms when Linux support is enabled from my understanding. BattleEye, Vanguard and Riots AC don’t work on Linux either, which is a significant portion of major games right now.
I’d argue it is an inherent limitation of Linux, as it’s so open that it’s harder to validate a user isn’t using 3rd party programs to cheat.
I think it’s an inherent limitation of client-side anticheat.
I think initiatives like Valve’s Overwatch system is a much better approach because it relies on players who have a stake in eliminating cheaters instead of a constant war against whatever flavor of the week cheating engine people are using. Pair that with an AI model that looks for patterns (both whether players fit cheating patterns or don’t fit expected patterns) and player-jurors will have enough information to make a call.
But that kind of initiative takes more effort than just integrating an off-the-shelf anti-cheat system, it forces companies to actually care about how their game runs on customer machines.
Personally I find Overwatch a horrible idea. It’s not terribly effective and relies on players, who are particularly unreliable at determining if someone is cheating. I believe those decisions should be entirely out of the hands of the players.
AI is still to expensive to run checks on every action that every player makes. Also any sort of automated system can’t be clearly banning people.
It doesn’t need to be realtime, as long as the cheaters get caught after some days. So take samples from every player and run them through a learning algorithm and take more samples the more suspicious someone is.
The more important thing is how you deal with cheaters once you find them. I really like the idea of increasing lag to cheaters instead of outright banning them so you waste their time more than anything. And then if you find out they’re not cheating, it’s easy to just drop them from the pool.
So don’t get into those games in the first place. There are so many games available. You will never exhaust them all.
I primarily play competitive fps games. They’re more or less the only genre of gaming that’s any kind of fun anymore imo.
I don’t enjoy single player games. I own literally thousands of dollars of indie/AA single player games that I don’t enjoy, so I’ve stopped buying new ones. I’m simply not interested in non-competitive games. They’re not fun and I’d rather not play them.
So? I play competitive FPS games on Linux.
You’re essentially the opposite from me. I keep trying MP and it just doesn’t click for me. I played Rocket League a bit with friends, but after 20-30 hours, I got tired of it and didn’t pick it up again. I used to love FPS MP, but it just feels so repetitive these days. I’ve tried MP strategy games, and it’s just the same repetitive thing. It becomes more about flawless performance of the same task and less about experiencing something new.
I love SP games with good story, unique gameplay, or immersive atmosphere. There’s just so much variety in the AA and indie space that there’s always something new to experience.
I haven’t played any of the recent big MP games, and I’m much more satisfied as a gamer than I was when i played them.
I guess I don’t see the appeal anymore. But then the are people who are the exact opposite and see the appeal of SP gaming. And I think that’s interesting.
Repetitive is honestly what I like about them. I don’t need to think about a story, don’t need to follow any path and don’t need to think. New experiences mean paying attention to a story I really don’t care about or mechanics that aren’t really mechanically complicated, just puzzles.
I play games to turn off my brain and do better at something. Chasing that flawless performance is what makes the games fun for me. I’ve played nearly 4000 hours of Apex Legends in the last 5 years. (Granted a majority was during the pandemic where I was playing every day for 6-12 hours) and continue to play, even though it’s getting a little stale.
To be honest I don’t care about story in 75% of the movies I watch either. So I think it’s just a personality trait. And also probably the super sever ADHD
Interesting, because that’s pretty much exactly the opposite of why I play games.
When I want to get good at something, I go to work. My job is pretty repetitive, but there’s a ton of room for improving my skillsets, and periodically there are new challenges. If that’s not cutting it, I’ll exercise. But playing the same game over and over feels really bad to me, so I just don’t do it. The only two games I have >100 hours recorded in are Europa Universalis IV and Cities Skylines, the first is because I really like playing different countries (I have >800 hours) and the second is because I like trying different city structures. Even then, after a campaign, I need a few weeks or even months before I play again. I get bored in RPGs when I get too OP, though I’ll stick around if the story is interesting.
So I’m always looking for a new experience, hence why I play so many indie games.
Fair. Everyone games for different reasons.
I’m a developer, so my day-to-day work is very much “new” every week. When I go home I definitely want something repetitive and easy. I’ve never had a problem doing repetitive tasks in gaming. I played exclusively modded minecraft for 6 years, so this is nothing new to me.
I honestly think the last Single Player game I completed was Bioshock Infinite when it released. (And Doom Eternal I think) Most of the time when a game is released and I buy it I’ll get 5-10 hours in and get supremely bored of the mechanics.
I’m getting home and explicitly not looking for new experiences, so I definitely see where we’re different there.
I’m a developer too, so I guess just different strokes for different folks.
I really like developing software, so half the time I’ll work on a personal project or something when I get home (work is team lead for Python and TypeScript, hobbies are Rust or Godot), and the rest I’ll split between reading/writing books and playing video games. I lose interest in projects, books, and games easily, so I tend to be constantly looking for something new.
Different strokes I guess. I’m quite introverted, so it’s more draining for me to play MP than a complex puzzle game or a “git gud” game like Dark Souls.
Personally I don’t really enjoy multiplayer games much because they are all so stale nowadays.
I guess I grew up with dedicated servers, map editors, and mods coming out all the time but most of the modern ones are so fixed on DLC and battlepasses.
Out of curiosity, which games are those?
Fall guys fortnite and apex (judge me if you want but my broke firend don’t wanna try anything else)
I can confirm that both apex and fallguys are working just fine on Linux. Fortnite on the other hand does not.
With the exception of the false positive ban wave reported a few days ago, Apex Legends has played flawlessly on Linux for the last couple of years. According to comments on protondb, Fall Guys also appears to be working fine, including multiplayer with anti-cheat. I’m not trying to tell you that you shouldn’t run Windows if you want to, but perhaps you didn’t fully explore all options?
If you switch back to Linux you could suggest Shatterline to your broke friends. It’s f2p and had no issues with anti-cheat last time I tried it. I think Overwatch 2 is also f2p.
I tried playing fall guys back in the days but it needed a few tweaks and it just didn’t work. Maybe it has changed so idk. Also thanks for your suggestions i’ll try them and see if i can switch back to nixos
I’m not judging, as I said I was curious. I get it though, Apex just had a Linux ban wave, Fortnite well, it’s owned by Epic and Fall Guys to my knowledge requires editing AC files so Windows in your case is more convenient
Sorry if i sounded a little rude. It’s just that most of the time people think i’m 6y/o just because i play fortnite and it got quite annoying
Hey, I like some backstreet songs. Just like in music, if you just like what you like and don’t let people tell you differently you’ll have a more healthy relationship with your own opinion. Like what you like and don’t be ashamed.
I think what you meant to write is “online games with anticheat are the worst thing”.
Because “online anticheat” is becoming a thing wherein the anticheat system is run on a remote server and not your local system. Not only does it not need to install malware on your local system, but it does a better job at catching cheaters.
I could be wrong but I believe most games (e.g: Fairfight in all EA games) do have a server-side anti-cheats, just not very effective ones because they like for EAC/BE to do most of the work.
No, you’re not wrong, but like you said they don’t really do much. But what I’m talking about is fully functional server-side anticheat. Check this out Waldo Vision. I skipped past the intro, cause that had WAN Show clips, which haven’t aged well…
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/LkmIItTrQP4?t=534
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Yup, and it’s a fantastic option. AFAIK, that’s what Valve uses for CS:GO, and while it’s not perfect, it isn’t intrusive and largely does its job.
That’s not even what I was referring to. I’m talking about full anticheat server-side. Waldo Vision
Interesting. Most of what I’ve seen operates on inputs, like whether aiming is too accurate or the player moves unrealistically fast.
But I’m in favor of anything server-side, we really shouldn’t be trying to make the clien more trustworthy.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/LkmIItTrQP4?t=534
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source, check me out at GitHub.
I refuse to buy a game that has DRM or anti cheat.
Which is fine, but it isn’t a perfect strategy, because developers and publishers have complete control to replace the client at any time to add features you decline to use, and you are not automatically entitled to a refund if that happens.
I would too, but it play it with firends and they couldn’t care less about free software and linux. They just want to play no questions asked
Get better friends.
Here’s a good place to get better friends: https://friendlylinuxplayers.org/
friends don’t grow on trees or sprout from the ground, it’s not that simple
Lol, you people are so damn weird
Or recommend better games.
Do you use the Steam storefront at all then?
Not every game on Steam has DRM. Lots will let you just copy your entire install directory to another machine and play without logging in to your account.
Yup. It’s not obvious which those are, but with some digging you can find them. I wish Valve made those more obvious.
I prefer gog.com
Don’t be so spineless.
Plenty of games work without anti cheat on Linux and I only play them.
You just buckled under the tiniest amount of pressure, but you would have to pry Linux out of my cold dead hands.
I could stop playing these games right now. As i said i’m don’t use my computer for gaming that much. I could be perfectly satisfied with only minecraft. But i play them with the homies and i can’t let them down
Not sure why there are so many downvotes. Are there really that many people in here of all places who think gaming is just triple-A games from companies that don’t respect their players and nothing else?
Edit: wording
I don’t like it because that’s the kind of elitist attitude that turns away new people from checking out Linux gaming. Imagine that as a response to “Hey I play these games and am interested in Linux”. You’re going to tell them: “switch to Linux and give up those games and if you don’t you’re not committed enough”?
It’s gatekeeping “console-wars” fanboy mentality. Like a
LinuxPlaystation fan attacking someone for playing anWindowsXbox Exclusive. As if that’s supposed to be their whole identity, and not just a way to play video games.There’s nothing wrong with having multiple consoles; there’s nothing wrong with dual-booting.
In my experience, most Windows-exclusive games work just fine under Wine. It’s not that big a deal.
This thread isn’t even about Windows games per se, but about a few games whose anti-cheats are screwing over Linux users.
It’s actually pretty hard to fuck up your game that much that it doesn’t work on Linux.
Many anti cheat even work under proton.
So yeah, just don’t fucking buy shit games.
Those anti cheat games usually need to opt in to supporting Proton/WINE. For Easy Anti Cheat (perhaps the biggest one out there), devs just need to tick a build option to support it, but then they feel obligated to do QA for it, so the option stays off until the higher ups decide to formally support that configuration.
So it’s not that it’s hard to mess it up, it’s just hard to convince higher ups to allow their game to work on Linux.
If a AAA MP game doesn’t work on Linux, it’s probably intentional.
DENY YOURSELF EVERY PLEASURE IN LIFE IN SERVICE TO THE OPEN SOURCE GODS
I don’t think I would consider “games with anti cheat” to be “every pleasure in life”. We’re spoiled for choice in games. I can increasingly narrow the scope of what I’m willing to support with my money every year and still not run out of great games to play.
I figured the “open source gods” line would have given away that I was being hyperbolic.
We’re talking about online multiplayer games. Unless all of your friends are in the same camp as you, have fun playing not playing with them.
DRM, especially the always online kind, is shit. I get that and I agree. But to act like OP is weak for wanting to play the games that have it is EXACTLY the dismissive shit that turns people away from the FOSS community. It’s gross and I hate it, get off your high horse (not you in particular) and have a real conversation with a person who comes with an earnest question, don’t tell them they “buckled”
You won’t play everything with your friends, but you probably don’t have a 100% overlap in interest in which games you play anyway. Plus, a friendly suggestion goes a long way. “Hey, want to play Quake now that it just got remastered?” or “I just found this game X, and it’s on sale. It’s kind of like Y but with Z. Want to check it out with me?” And yes, I knew you were being hyperbolic, but I think you were serious when you were saying you were denying yourself some pleasure rather than sticking to some principle. And the value of that principle is going to vary from person to person, so I also agree with you on the “buckling”, but there’s just so much to play out there that one criterion is unlikely to be a deal-breaker given the breadth of games available.
I mean you’re basically saying “it’s different for everyone so do what you want” which is very different than calling OP spineless for wanting to play games that don’t work on Linux. I’m not arguing that the best games require Windows or that nothing else is worth playing - I’m saying it’s arrogant and idiotic to insult someone over wanting to play.
@glimse
I’d have said that cheating is the worst. Especially in the light of all the measures the software studios have to take to protect honest gamers from being taken advantage of.
@ampersandrew
I absolutely do.
I’m personally not interested in MP anyway, but I will occasionally play if there’s a Linux compatible game on offer, but I’ll probably burn out after a few sessions anyway. For example, I used to play L4D and similar co-op games with friends, but I got bored after finishing the campaign, so I bailed when they were still playing together.
There are plenty of MP games out there that work on Linux, and I’ve played several of them with friends. The big MP games just don’t interest me.
So it’s less “stand up for Linux” and more “stand up for yourself.” If you don’t like a game your friends like, for whatever reason, feel free to just not play it. I recommend suggesting something else that does interest you. We got into a rut and it turned out my friends didn’t really like the games we were playing anyway, so recommending something else really spiced up our gaming time. Try it out and see what works.
But if you really want to play something, I don’t see a problem with firing up Windows from time to time. I have it installed on my system as well, I just haven’t used it in a year or two, but it’s there if I need it.
You’re not the one with the attitude I take issue with. You didn’t call OP spineless for wanting to play games that only work on Windows.
Sure, and I’m not arguing with you, merely giving a perspective that perhaps going with the group doesn’t always get you what you want. If you value using a given OS more than playing a certain set of games with friends, that’s an absolutely fine take. There are lots of options between the extremes of “don’t play MP games at all” and “only use Windows for gaming.”
If you don’t want to play a specific game for some reason, don’t play that game, even if all of your friends try to force you to.
Dam. Sorry to hear.
Same here. I’ve only a Linux machine for over a decade but I had to go out and buy Windows just so I could play on FaceIT. I’m praying that cs2 supports Linux and the MM experience is good enough to make FaceIT obsolete.
CSGO already supports Linux. It’s going to be the same appid on steam. It’s unlikely they’d remove os support for cs2.
Buy windows? 🤯🤯🤯
that’s supposedly the only way to run it legit
A Windows license is in the realm of $200
I don’t want to encourage Windows usage, but if you really need it you can buy a grey market license for $10-20.
Sure, but I’m just pointing out that a “proper” official Windows license isn’t cheap.
@fhein @CeeBee In the EU, you can sell used software licences afaik. I bought windows 10 a few times, really cheap. With office 2019, and one time with office 2021.
I hope they didn’t actually buy it from M$ at least, but a third party reseller for five bucks
I did, it was £79 or £89 if I recall. Windows 10 home edition. Also I don’t get Windows 11 because my mobo/cpu don’t support it.
In Germany we would say “Windows 11 ist Quatsch”
Personally never bought it. (Windows activation script ftw)
Why should he?
Cs2 is 100% getting Linux support. Wouldnt make sense for a company that heavily invested in Linux to not support it
100% im switching to nixos/arch when cs2 releases
should release this summer, right?
Counting down the days… Less than a month to go??
They’ll release it in valve time